Anthony,

The story/quote that Edgar cited is does not reflect 'what zen is supposed to 
be'.  Zen is not 'supposed to be' anything.  Quit looking for a template for 
zen or rules to follow.

If you read some of the koans you'll see that many of them are just one person 
asking another the question 'What is Buddha Mind?'  No one gives the same 
answer.  All are valid responses.  In this story the monk gave his valid 
response which came from his fully realized Buddha Nature.  That doesn't mean 
that has to be your response, or even that it would be the same monk's response 
in the same situation 5 minutes later.

The content of the response is not important.  It's the fact that the response 
was a reflection of Buddha Nature that's important.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:16 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God


Edgar,
 
Thank you. If that is what zen is supposed to be, I have to remodel my idea 
about it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:47 PM
Anthony, 

Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue):

During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a lone monk 
seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage.

Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, "Aren't you worried about 
dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye."

The monk responded, "And I could be killed by you right now without batting an 
eye."

Edgar




On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Bill,
 
I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on 
earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with 
killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are 
being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When 
you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer 
is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org <billsm...@hhs1963. org> wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963. org <billsm...@hhs1963. org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM
Anthony and Mike,

I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from 
Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I 
agree with it for the most part.

As for Anthony's questions below:
- Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when 
refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important 
part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about 
these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about 
what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When 
washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS!

- The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to 
intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ!

Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 
14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling 
and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries 
and Teisho on the case.

Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen 
Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole 
may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem 
with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. 
Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of 
a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be 
misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any 
event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all 
your books.

The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a 
trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature.

Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If 
you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on 
the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I 
use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org.

Thanks...Bill! 

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps..com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God

Mike,

Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, 
after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'.

I have read:
- Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between 
two groups of monks.
- Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a 
porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out).
- Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry 
them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource..
- A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and 
the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings)

What do you think of them?

Anthony

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM
Hi Al,

This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the 
beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing 
inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which 
demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but 
which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a 
constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. 
This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and 
rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of 
society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an 
immediate action).. A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his 
culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no 
thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes 
from outside of himself. 

So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always 
open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a 
belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces 
behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major 
religions.

Mike

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 <fitness1963@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon 
as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. >

It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is 
some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do 
evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. 

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