Anthony, The story/quote that Edgar cited is does not reflect 'what zen is supposed to be'. Zen is not 'supposed to be' anything. Quit looking for a template for zen or rules to follow.
If you read some of the koans you'll see that many of them are just one person asking another the question 'What is Buddha Mind?' No one gives the same answer. All are valid responses. In this story the monk gave his valid response which came from his fully realized Buddha Nature. That doesn't mean that has to be your response, or even that it would be the same monk's response in the same situation 5 minutes later. The content of the response is not important. It's the fact that the response was a reflection of Buddha Nature that's important. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:16 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Edgar, Thank you. If that is what zen is supposed to be, I have to remodel my idea about it. Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote: From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:47 PM Anthony, Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue): During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a lone monk seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage. Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, "Aren't you worried about dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye." The monk responded, "And I could be killed by you right now without batting an eye." Edgar On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org <billsm...@hhs1963. org> wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963. org <billsm...@hhs1963. org> Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. As for Anthony's questions below: - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books. The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature. Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org. Thanks...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps..com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. I have read: - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between two groups of monks. - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.. - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk> wrote: From: mike brown <uerusub...@yahoo. co.uk> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an immediate action).. A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes from outside of himself. So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major religions. Mike --- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 <fitness1963@ yahoo.com> wrote: Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. ____________ _________ _________ _________ _ Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail..com and @rocketmail. .com. __________ NOD32 3761 (20090113) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://ww! w.eset. com ________________________________________ Search. browse and book your hotels and flights through Yahoo! Travel ________________________________________ Get your preferred Email name! 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