Bill, [Bill!] No cause, no effect, no previous moment. Just now, Just THIS! Just this arose from somewhere. The house that appears NOW arose from the past. The cause of this now is the past. You exist as an illusory form because in the now of the past your parents had sex. If they did not there would be no now for you. If there is no cause and effect there would be no response to my posting from you now. My posting was the cause of your response. This is all illusion yes, but in the illusion cause and effect exists and functions. To deny this is to say that the illusion is the same as your zen experience which then would contradict your belief that this is an illusion. If the illusion is not the same nature as your experience of non-illusion how can you say cause and effect do not exist. They exist in the illusory world, to deny they don't is to say then that the illusory world is the same as your zen experience.
Bill!] What subjective measurement would you put on compassion? To the worldly compassion may be subjective. Some may label certain acts as compassion, others may not. What objective measurement would you put on compassion? Compassion has a definitive effect. The measure is again a worldly illusory measure, but it is increased worldly happiness and peace as well as that which brings liberation to others. From virtuous actions arises virtuous effects. Even acts of compassion from those who are just following some guide will have an increasing seeable affect, but there is a difference between acting concepts of compassion and acting out of compassion. Compassion sees others suffering and tries to free others from that suffering, though ultimately compassion transforms the human aggregates to that of a Buddha to perfectly do this. What do you have to say of compassion when the duality of subject and object dissolve? The compassionate being becomes even more effective in the transformation of others. What do you have to say about the normal self when duality of subject and object dissolve? From your experience you still eat, drink and interact, If subject and object have dissolved how do you chose what to eat or drink, or even to join this site and respond to posts. You express your subjective experience and make use of objective functioning things. The duality of subject and object dissolving is perfectly expressed through compassion as they have only dissolved for you not the others in the world to which you abide. [Bill!] Without self there are no others. There are no others to you because you project no self on others. There is a self that appears even though there is no self to your experience. You project your subjective view of no self onto the objective appearance of the world of form and the others who inhabit it. Without valuation there is no suffering. There is no suffering for you since you hold no valuation, but others suffer from it. Also with correct valuation there is no suffering as compassion is not a source of suffering. You may say you have no valuation, but from your no self appears a valuation of your experience through your illusory self. You place value on your experience. Without effort all things exist. Tell that to the construction workers working in the hot sun to build a sky rise or to the person who works day and night to support their family. Again you are projecting your view of Buddha nature onto the illusion which is just not how the illusion or those in it functions. For you without effort, but for those without your experience, by the sweat of their brow things exist. [Bill!] Compassion does indeed arise from the mind, but like all products of the mind, is not spontaneous. Spontaneous is before mind, before self, before duality, before valuations, before compassion The spontaneous may be before the mind, but when it appears through the mind to the world of form, compassion is spontaneous. It may not be spontaneous for you, but it can be. Your spontaneous nature appears as bill eating and drinking and doing things, a being of compassion spontaneous nature appears through a spontaneous mind of compassion. Bill!] A car is used to go from one place to another. When you realize that one place is no better than any other , attachment to the car dissolves. And like you said you still use it to go here and there. Compassion can be used also without attachment though you do not believe this. You don't live in your car. You do live in your mind and body though and like a car that functions to get you from here to there, the mind and body function. The nature of the mind and body can be changed which in turn changes its function. [Bill!] Compassion is an illusion. So is a car, but as you say so long as you are not attached to it you can use it to go here and there. A person can not be attached to compassion and still use it, like a car, to perform a specific function, the liberation of others. Bill!] I am definitely a worldly being. I was meaning a normal worldly view to which your own experience is contra to. Your experience is not shared by most of the world views. [Bill!] There is indeed a contradiction in your statement above, but it is not what you think. The contradiction is with `liberated being' and `chooses'. I was speaking of your view. Do you not choose anything? Or do you just eat what is offered or is it a spontaneous appearance of your body walking to the fridge to spontaneously grab food? Do you not go anywhere unless requested, or do you just see you body move from place to place doing things? [Bill!] Those that `become one with their true nature' have no NEED to display compassion. This is true. You are right, but those who are not one with their true nature need them to. They have needs liberated beings don't, hence the value in a liberated being abiding spontaneously in a spontaneous mind of compassion. [Bill!] How can this being have compassion for `others' without first having the illusion of `self'? How can you function and talk to others without first having a view of self? There are illusion others appearing and interacting with your illusion appearing self. The being is aware that there is a self that appears to others but is are not attached to it, just as you have a being the appears and are not attached to it. Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them. (By dissolving the self you dissolve the concept of others, thereby saving them How is the suffering that is appearing in the now helped by a being who has no concept of self? With eyes one can see how suffering is helped by the mind of compassion. joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > > > My comments are embedded below: > > > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of maitreya003 > Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:24 PM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Zen] Re: Compassion > > > > > > BIll > > [Bill!...from a previous post] "If you are `liberated', are not `picking > and choosing', then actions are just actions. It's up to someone else to > decide whether they fit their own particular definition of `compassionate' > or not - and maybe even to measure it." > > You say that actions are just actions for the liberated. > > [Bill!] Yes. > > If this is so, what is causing the actions to arise if not from the > previous moment of the illusory mental continuum? > > [Bill!] No cause, no effect, no previous moment. Just now, Just THIS! > > If actions are just actions, then the liberated make no valuations of > anything and are just reactive to the external causes? > > [Bill!] No valuations. No causes, no effect (reactions), no external, no > internal. Just THIS! > > Does a liberated not pick and choose to have a cup of tea, or decide to eat? > > [Bill!] Not picking and choosing, we drink tea, we eat. > > Actions are not just actions as different actions have different effects in > the world of illusion. You speak from a view outside the manifest world of > illusion which is contra to the way the illusion functions. > > [Bill!] You speak from a view inside the world of illusions. Let them > dissolve into nothingness and then speak. > > Compassion like gravity is a measurable thing, not based on mere subjective > interpretation. > > [Bill!] What subjective measurement would you put on compassion? What > objective measurement would you put on compassion? What do you have to say > of compassion when the duality of subject and object dissolve? > > The world may see it as that, but that does not make it so. Compassion is > necessary a mind that sees others suffering and puts forth effort to free > them from it. > > [Bill!] Without self there are no others. Without valuation there is no > suffering. Without enslavement (attachment) there is no freedom. Without > effort all things exist. > > Compassion is not a single or collection of compassionate acts, but a > spontaneous mind that these arise from. > > [Bill!] Compassion does indeed arise from the mind, but like all products of > the mind, is not spontaneous. Spontaneous is before mind, before self, > before duality, before valuations, before compassion. > > This mind is a functioning thing much like a car is a functioning thing, so > just as with a valid mind a liberated person can say the car is not working > because it will not start, so too can a liberated mind say that act is not > compassion. > > [Bill!] A car is used to go from one place to another. When you realize > that one place is no better than any other , attachment to the car > dissolves. The car is still there, parked in the garage. You can use it > when you want, like maybe to design a software system or build a bridge. > When you're done you park it back in the garage. You don't live in your > car. > > You make compassion into some illusion within the illusion. > > [Bill!] Compassion is an illusion. I'm not sure what 'illusion within the > illusion' refers to, but I did also bring in the concept of attachment to > illusions - like attachment to compassion. Is that what you mean? > > A car is an illusion yes, but it is seen and functions as objective > reality. > > [Bill!] See my response above. > > Compassion is no different, but when you say "they fit their own particular > definition of `compassionate' or not" you turn compassion into a subjective > reality which is not so. > > [Bill!] Compassion is an illusion. All illusions are subjective in the > sense that they are products of our mind which creates dualisms - such as > the dualistic set object/subject, or self/other, or good/bad, or > compassionate/insensitive. > > Compassion as a subjective reality is an ignorant view that is held by many > worldly beings. > > [Bill!] I am definitely a worldly being. What are you? > > It can be seen and measured in the illusion. From compassion even to the > unliberated arises increased happiness and decreased suffering in the life > and those around the individual. > > [Bill!] Happiness and suffering are illusions. They only exist in the > illusory world of self/other, etc. > > This can be analyzed and measured. > > [Bill!] Please give me an example of how to analyze and measure compassion. > > Buddha said compassion and liberation are two different things. > > [Bill!] First of all, what Buddha is purported to have said or not said is > of no real value to me if it contradicts my own experiences. Second of all, > what you have reported above that Buddha said 'compassion and liberation are > two different things' is only half the story. Before liberation, this > statement is true. After liberation, compassion and liberation are both > equally meaningless. > > A liberated being who has no valuation on anything of actions and effects , > yet chooses foods to eat and places to go is a contradiction. > > [Bill!] There is indeed a contradiction in your statement above, but it is > not what you think. The contradiction is with 'liberated being' and > 'chooses'. > > [Bill!...from a previous post] With zen practice we can recognize these > illusions as illusions and loose our attachment to them; so in practice what > you call `compassion' reverts to where it's always been, in our first and > only nature > > Compassion is in our true nature, so too is all illusions. Compassion is an > illusion just as anger however to say that those who become one with their > true nature are compassion or have no need to display it is false. > > [Bill!] Those that 'become one with their true nature' have no NEED to > display compassion. This is true. > > Compassion is our true illusory appearing nature when all self grasping > ignorance has subsided. When there is even the subtlest self grasping then > our ultimate nature is not appearing correctly in the illusion and views > such as yours arise. > > [Bill!] Thanks for clearing that up for me. > > Buddha described both, but you maintain what you believe through your own > experience, ignoring the fact that your experience may be faulted. > > [Bill!] And you ignore the fact (possibility) that Buddha's experience may > be faulted, or that the account of his experience may be faulted, or that > the translation of the account of his experience may be faulted. Experience > is all we ever have. > > A Foe Destroyer who is liberated holds the same Buddha nature view and is > blind to the very subtle self grasping ignorance they are under. They will > never suffer it, but are still ignorant to it. > > [Bill!] I don't know what you are saying here. What's a 'Foe Destroyer'? > Is that like a 'Foo Fighter'? > > You say in zen you loose attachments by seeing illusions as illusions yet > you are attached to a view of self. > > [Bill!] How so? > > Another compassionate being also sees illusions as illusions and has no > attachment to them, but from their mind of illusory compassion arises peace > for others. > > [Bill!] How can this being have compassion for 'others' without first having > the illusion of 'self'? > > There is a difference in liberated beings in the world of illusion which is > what is seen by others. When one is free from the illusion there are only > others left as the individual no longer posits a self. > > [Bill!] Incorrect! When one is free from the illusion of self there are no > others. There is Just THIS! > > It is when this liberated being projects this view of no self onto others > that the flaw arises. It is to these others that a liberated being should do > more than have a cup of tea. If everything is at it is, then why did you > practice zen? What is the purpose? > > [Bill!] Zen practice has no purpose, no goal. > > To free your individual self? Why put forth effort to free your individual > self then deny the need for effort to free others? > > [Bill!] When you drop your attachment to self - all are free in the blink > of an eye! > > Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them. (By dissolving the self > you dissolve the concept of others, thereby saving them) > > Desires are inexhaustible; I vow to put an end to them. (By dissolving the > self you dissolve attachments that are the root of desires) > > The dharmas are boundless; I vow to master them. (By dissolving the self > you are dharma) > > The Buddha Way is unsurpassable; I vow to obtain it. (By dissolving the > self you are Buddha) > > > Joe > > [Bill!] .Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , > <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Maitreya003, > > > > > > > > My comments are embedded below: > > > > > > > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > Behalf > > Of maitreya003 > > Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:35 AM > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Compassion > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!...from a previous post] "The point for this thread is that this > > thinking of, and perhaps acting for > > yourself or others is spontenous and not a result of any hope for reward > or > > fear > > of punishment " > > > > > > This is so. There should be no expectation or fear as the cause of > > compassionate actions, but there is a state of being to which compassion > > arises naturally. > > > > [Bill!] Agreed, but then it is not called compassion. > > > > > > [Bill!...from a previous post] "like satisfying an internal goal or > > external rule to be compassionate." > > > > > > Correct also no need to follow an external goal, however there are acts of > > compassion and ones that are not of compassion. > > > > [Bill!] There are no acts of compassion done. There are acts of compassion > > observed by others. > > > > Acts of compassion are not a rule but they are identifiable. > > > > [Bill!] Acts of Compassion may be identifiable by others, but if you are > not > > applying judgment there are no different qualities in one act as opposed > to > > another act to identify. > > > > Much like gravity functions, and the laws of physics function and are able > > to be measured and validated, so too compassion is a functioning thing. > > > > [Bill!] .and Compassion can probably be measured by an observer just as > > gravity can be measured: 'a little compassion', 'a lot of compassion', > > 'don't give a shit'? How would you measure it? Perhaps 'normal' compassion > > could be referred to as just 'C', and then twice as much compassion could > be > > referred to as '2-C's'. Maybe you could tear compassion apart and find out > > how it works. Then you could quantify it better by measuring it's parts - > > like gravity: 32ft/sec/sec? > > > > Compassion is not a 'functioning thing'. It's just a label/name we put on > > one of our many illusory discriminations. > > > > Not all actions are compassion, not all liberated actions are compassion. > > > > [Bill!] If you're 'picking and choosing' among illusions of the quality of > > actions, then yes - some are compassionate and some are not. If you are > > 'liberated', are not 'picking and choosing', then actions are just > actions. > > It's up to someone else to decide whether they fit their own particular > > definition of 'compassionate' or not - and maybe even to measure it. > > > > I'm now back from Kuala Lumpur.Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > > database 5328 (20100731) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5329 (20100731) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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