Dear Artie and Friends

I wanted to let this percolate a little, see what fruits would come forth.  

First I want to thank all the posters who commented on the Rumi Poem, an 
ecstatic Sufi Poet who used the allegorical and symbolic language of the Sufis 
that came before him.  

I asked a question to, I think Artie, and maybe a few others chimed in here, 
what was the "Beloved"?  I think we got our answer.  

Let me leave a few crumbs behind here.  I think it was Bill who came closest to 
what Rumi is talking about, in terms of Zen tradition, what Rumi is referring 
to, which has its counterpart in many of the writings of the Zen Masters and 

Having said that, I don't think we could have much of a real insight in terms 
of being a Zennist, zennist, or spokesperson for "the affection we might have 
for our own lineage, heritage, practice," with this sort of thing that follows 

Artie writes -- "While I respect other people's choices deeply- religion, 
"spiritual movements', etc do not interest me in the least- to me they grossly 
over-complicate what is actually a very simple matter."

I think once we get to the place of no interest and an opinion, well that 
pretty much speaks for itself.

I think for the most part what we got was some information about those who are 
here, which is useful, and what they think they know, or perhaps what they 
don't know.  

This points out the old Indian Vedic/Sufi story of the blind men in the room 
who touch different parts of the elephant.  Each one described it in a 
different manner -- a fan, a pillar, a wall, a rope . . . 

This is human nature, the conditioning part of the human mind that creeps in 
and blots out possibilities.  Possibilities of perhaps freedom.  Freedom for 
what?  To see . . . truly see . . . 

How much of our Zen is conditioned?  Probably around the same amount of our 
Jesus experience or our Sufism, what have you.

I think we have to be careful in making Zen a special case, a certain thing, 
even in the traditional way we present -- you chopping wood carrying bullshit, 
or what have you?

If we don't know, perhaps we should just leave it at that, get back to 'knowing 
how to know, learning how to learn, etc . . ."  

Repeating things from the tradition is no different than telling someone that 
Jesus died for your sins and making that a special consideration.  

These are interesting times -- 

and well, you know how it goes, donkey is never happy.

K among the sitters 

--- In, "roloro1557" <roloro1...@...> wrote:
> I very much agree, and very well put Chris :-) 
> I think "achieving mystic union with some Beloved" is just another concept 
> that takes one further from zen. To me zen is about reality, about shedding 
> concepts and judgements. To me zen is getting rid of ideas about reality and 
> dealing with reality directly. 
> Also, to me, zen is about doing things 100%, being totally present, as the 
> saying "when the dancer becomes the dance" or as I said in another post 
> "marvelous spiritual power, chopping wood and carrying water!" Not mysticism, 
> just reality please- straight, no chaser :-)
> Artie
> --- In, ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote:
> >
> > hopefully arranged into an appropriate pattern to make my point that 
> > zen, as I understand it, is nothing to do with our dreams to escape 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > the mundane reality we see before us to achieve mystic union with 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > some Beloved. It is not about escaping life, but a way to engage all 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > of life in a balanced and realistic fashion. 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >


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