Dear Edgar

You are so right, but to go on, you could read Hafiz as well . . . and let's 
not forget Ryokan, one of my favorites, or Tufu.

best wishes

Kirk

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@...> wrote:
>
> Those of you who appreciate Rumi should also read Tagore.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 15, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Rose P wrote:
> 
> > Hi Kirk
> >  
> > I really enjoy reading the poetry of Rumi. I don't know a lot about Sufism 
> > but it certainly looks interesting.
> >  
> > Rose
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 9/14/10, salik888 <novelid...@...> wrote:
> > 
> > From: salik888 <novelid...@...>
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 5:32 PM
> > 
> >  
> > Dear Bill
> > 
> > The Imam behind the controversial Islam Community Center is a Sufi, and he 
> > has done some good things to further and mediate tensions in the past with 
> > education and a more pluralistic viewpoint, or so it seems. I don't know 
> > much about him, but do know that he is Sufi and used to come on Cable News 
> > and put forth a moderate position, which means nothing -- that's politics.
> > 
> > On the other hand, Sufism in the West, as well as the East I assume, has 
> > been suffering from decades of competing with the Salafi (Wahabi) 
> > expression of Islam. Also, it has had a difficult history with legalism in 
> > Shia Islam as well. For whatever reason what I call "The Super Sufis" spend 
> > much of their time winking and nodding toward the universal expression and 
> > reality of Sufism but putting forth that there is no Sufism without Islam, 
> > so they make it contained within Islam, specifically. They do all this with 
> > legalistic proofs and historical assertions that all the great Sufis were 
> > followers of Islamic Shariah, Muftis, Muslim Saints, Hadith Scholars, what 
> > have you. They take great care to trace the Silsila (Orders/Tariqa) back to 
> > the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. 
> > 
> > Of course, any impartial objective sociological rational investigation of 
> > this will show otherwise -- that Sufism was a reality without a name before 
> > and in the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and that, since it is not a 
> > Religion perse, it operated within Dar Al Islam once Islam was the religion 
> > of the people as Esoteric Schools that had a variety of Religious 
> > practitioners. You could say it preceded Bahai in its Universalism. It also 
> > had connections to Hermetic, Gnostic, Zorastrian, and Christian wanderers. 
> > Sufism is about personal transformation (alchemy) and the symbolism of The 
> > Bees, among many other things. It is a school without a schoolhouse 
> > offering -- poetry, sober mystics, drunken mystics, magistrates, wanderers, 
> > musicians, merchants, philosophers, metaphysicians, psychologists, 
> > warriors, etc . . . So there really are not any contradictions with Sufism 
> > in the realm of Islam, as well as Christianity, Judaism, Zen, Tibetan 
> > Buddhism, Shiavite Vedanta, Vedanta, etc . . . many of the great Sufi 
> > teachers in India held dual citizenships. Hazrat Inayat Khan, one of the 
> > first Sufi teachers in the West had a Hindu Guru as well as involvement in 
> > Four Major Sufi Orders. I guess the closest we have in the West is the old 
> > associations of Freemasonry. At least there are close parrallels, in fact 
> > many believe that Freemasonry came from Sufi Origins.
> > 
> > So, current Sufi Scholarship in the West and the rising immigration to the 
> > West has created a Sufi that is much more inclined to compete with the 
> > decayed forms of Imamism, Wahhabism, Salafism -- in short, false Sufism. 
> > 
> > Bill -- 
> > 
> > My connection to Sufism was at first that I was coming out of Zen Buddhist 
> > background. Of course I had been raised by Christians. It was from Zen 
> > Buddhists that I first heard about the Sufis. When I delved into the study 
> > of it one thing lead to another and then pretty soon I was amongst most 
> > Middle Easterners practicing Islamic Sufism and following of Shariah. For 
> > those years I practiced nominally as a Muslim Sufi -- salat, ramadan, 
> > mosque on friday, gatherings for zikr (chanting), study of fiqh (legal), 
> > instructions in shariah, and Quran study, with some Arabic, enough to 
> > recite prayers and practice daily, and chant the shorter Surahs (chapters 
> > of Quran). 
> > 
> > However, probably because of having the Zen background, and because of the 
> > inconsistencies in my studies, I began to see something seriously wrong. As 
> > I studied the Poets, some Scholars, and the history of what most were 
> > practicing, and the mindless devotion to the Shaykhs and authority that 
> > many so called Dervishes (students) displayed, I came to the conclusion 
> > that I had to leave the practice of Islam and take up the implementation of 
> > Sufism. I realized almost everyone I was coming in contact with was just 
> > operating under some kind of quasi-Religious affiliation that said they 
> > were and are the "True Islam" and that was the "real Sufism" . . . So I 
> > left. There was not much difference between who I was interacting with and 
> > Pentecostal nutcases on television. The Order I was apart of even began 
> > doing initiation online by putting your hands on screen and teaching that 
> > we were in the end of times so blessings were needed for so many. Of course 
> > no one knows anything about their bank accounts I am sure. Basically it was 
> > all Religious exploitive excesses by people dressing up in turbans and sufi 
> > clothes . . .
> > 
> > We were talking about merchandizing and cultural vampirism, right? Same 
> > thing. I was looking for study and serious people, for the most part I got 
> > -- "the Shaykh is going to be here, the Shaykh is going to be there, the 
> > Shaykh said this, the Shaykh said that . . . " And then there was the 
> > kissing of the ring. I had to leave.
> > 
> > First things first, Sufism calls the teacher to you, not you to the 
> > teacher. There is a great deal of preparation in first things first before 
> > you are even ready for a Sufi teacher. It is not a wider application and 
> > expression, it is purely esoteric and has very little to do with democratic 
> > ideals or eastern authoritarian excessess. But westerners gobble this shit 
> > up, trust me. 
> > 
> > So, I am left with my Sufi studies, curriculum, a few teachers, my ongoing 
> > approach to the two subjects -- Zen and Sufism. It appears that my life has 
> > been very much about these two paths. In my estimation, choosing would not 
> > be possible, and would only be superficial. I certainly have been 
> > associated with Soto Zen Buddhism longer, and have practiced and studied 
> > Zen Buddhism longer. They both have incredible implementation and 
> > possibilities in the west. 
> > 
> > For anyone interested you could take a look at the following organizations 
> > that were began by Sufis in the west. Of course the Religionists 
> > continuously tell their followers they are the false teachers. But by their 
> > fruits they shall be known, right? Take a look at the current controversy 
> > -- while the Imam has his right to put the Community Center there, you have 
> > to question his judgements. 
> > 
> > http://ishkbooks.com/books/index.html
> > 
> > http://www.beshara.org/
> > 
> > Interestingly enough, it is the Gurdjieffians in their own way that have 
> > kept Sufi teaching models alive, which is whole other subject. This has 
> > been my experience . . . Sufism really is an Esoteric School that operates 
> > with current cultural realities. The Fourth Way schools, the real ones, 
> > still do this. 
> > 
> > And then of course, we are back to Zen, which I am glad to return to as 
> > much as I can.
> > 
> > Appreciate the opportunity to post and to teach a little, shed some light, 
> > etc . . . 
> > 
> > What we were talking about in terms of commercialization of Eastern Wisdom 
> > is addressed particularly within my tradition -- they focus on education, 
> > children's literacy, thinking, cognitive patterns, business, pyschology, 
> > sociology, politics, service, health, etc . . . it is truly a whollistic 
> > 'in the world but not of the world' application. That is clearest 
> > expression of what Sufism is -- you work in the world in an esoteric 
> > manner, share where you can, and let your life be your message . . . 
> > 
> > How does this begin? The beginning of the path is -- manners . . . you have 
> > perfect manners and take that into the world.
> > 
> > But, well, donkey is never happy.
> > 
> > Nasrudin Story
> > 
> > Nasruddin put up with the school for some months. After he left, he bought 
> > his wife some new suits and things for the home and found that he still had 
> > enough for a bicycle. A neighbour, passing by, said, "That is a fine bike, 
> > Hodja. Where are you going to go on it?" "Well," replied Nasruddin, I still 
> > have to give that some more thought, but I can tell you where I am not 
> > going."
> > 
> > K among the stable feeders
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Kirk,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I heard the imam behind the controversial Islam Community Center near
> > > `Ground Zero' in NYC is a Sufi Muslim.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sufism is described as a mystical practice within Islam - a subset of 
> > > Islam
> > > just as most people would classify Zen as a subset of Mahayana Buddhism
> > > which of course is a subset of Buddhism. Is that how you see it? Is that
> > > how you practice it?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thanks...Bill!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On 
> > > Behalf
> > > Of salik888
> > > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 9:16 PM
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear Mike
> > > 
> > > Good questions and good post. It is interesting that perhaps we have come 
> > > to
> > > a little of the same conclusions, only I derived it from an impact of
> > > Japanese Soto and Rinzai Zen Buddhism in America and you are seeing the
> > > reality of culture and the inner life of Zen in Japan.
> > > 
> > > To a certain extent, I would have to say that while the Japanese 
> > > intentions
> > > probably would automatically be implementing and apply the Zen 
> > > (Tradition),
> > > I would not say this is entirely true. I will explain. But before I do,
> > > having said that, I would like to point out something derived from the
> > > Perennialist/Traditionalist School of Comparative Religion, which is a
> > > Philosophical and Metaphysical overview of Ancient Traditions perse -- 
> > > that
> > > on an exoteric level, the outward manifestation of the Tradition, of 
> > > course
> > > the Japanese would be closer to this reality, although the West could and
> > > should be doing this as well. So, I would say that Zen is in good hands 
> > > with
> > > the Japanese under the onslaught of post modernist times and Secularism,
> > > which steam rolls everything in the name of progress. On the other hand,
> > > Zen, the esoteric, which is what is essential, the inner life, this no
> > > culture can place any claim to. It is the reality and the slipperiest of
> > > fish to obtain -- as the Sufis say, the kernal and the kernal. 
> > > 
> > > In the case of Americans or Westerner plundering the Tradition of Zen. I
> > > think that is two answers -- first, there are some who have kept up the
> > > Traditions of Soto and Rinzai very well, but expressing a natural sense of
> > > American Transcendentalism. We sort of have our own secrets and gnostics
> > > inherent in our experience. That is culture and the Tradition, like the
> > > differences between Chinese Chan and Japanese Zen. And then of course 
> > > there
> > > has been those that have expressed an anything goes sort of Zen, or Zen 
> > > and
> > > this and Zen and that. So, in short, I don't think Zen Buddhism is under
> > > anymore attack in America than Japan, at least on the esoteric level. 
> > > 
> > > I do think there is a possibility in both Japan and the West for any
> > > Tradition, whether that be Sufis or Zen, for it to continuously be under
> > > attack from Secularism and syncretism. This is post modern information age
> > > times. In some sense it is what is wrong at the heart of the Middle East 
> > > . .
> > > . not only is Islam fighting the Secular West, but more importantly they 
> > > are
> > > fighting themselves, in terms of post modern times. Technological and
> > > Western individualism and syncretism has made advances on their 
> > > civilization
> > > (traditional culture)and they are having a sort of nighmarish reform that 
> > > we
> > > are all witnessing. Trust me, it probably was not much fun in Europe for
> > > many during the upheaval post Reformation. 
> > > 
> > > So, in perspective Zen is alive and well. It offers a good Tradition and
> > > leans on its pluralistic expression. The Sufis do likewise, however they 
> > > are
> > > on the run in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the two major power brokers in Middle
> > > Eastern culture. When the Sufis can practice again in Mecca, you will know
> > > that its all turned for the better. But in the case of Zen, and even in
> > > China, which I hear Buddhism is flourishing after all these years, as I
> > > said, I think the prospects look good.
> > > 
> > > best wishes
> > > 
> > > Kirk
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , 
> > > mike
> > > brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kirk,
> > > > 
> > > > The below was an interesting read. If I read it correctly. you seem to 
> > > > be
> > > saying 
> > > > that practioners of Zen need to adapt their practice to suit their own 
> > > > particular cultural milieu. As someone who is living in Japan, and isÂ
> > > reminded 
> > > > daily of the chasm between Asian/western thinking, I think I'd have to
> > > agree. 
> > > > 'Zen' is Japanese, but what is at the heart of Zen is not. The change
> > > towards a 
> > > > more western approach to Zen, however, is slow and incremental and maybe
> > > that's 
> > > > as it should be. I wonder tho, will a more western approach to Zen
> > > include it as 
> > > > 'just' part of a wider, eclectic system of religious/philisophical etc.Â
> > > study 
> > > > and practice - or will the efficacy of Zen be diluted by such an 
> > > > approach
> > > (the 
> > > > traditional Japanese viewpoint).
> > > > 
> > > > Mike  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > .From: salik888 <novelidea8@>
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@ 
> > > > Sent: Mon, 13 September, 2010 2:28:50
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Practical Mysticism - Evelyn Underhill
> > > > 
> > > > Â 
> > > > Dear Ed
> > > > 
> > > > I appreciate the affirmation, you never know what is going to be taken 
> > > > out
> > > of 
> > > > context in the wrong way in the peanut gallery. Nevertheless, at some
> > > time, 
> > > > later for me than sooner, and really through the Sufis, who have a
> > > different way 
> > > > of explaining psychology, where they break down the levels of delusion 
> > > > and
> > > 
> > > > attachment, it became clear to me, at least for myself what my overall 
> > > > aim
> > > is 
> > > > and could be. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > We were talking about mysticism earlier, in my estimation a wholly
> > > unproductive 
> > > > discussion, since people would be speaking about the end results and 
> > > > their
> > > 
> > > > definition of this -- enlightenment, cosmic concsiousness, etc . . . The
> > > reason 
> > > > I bring this up is that it has to do with greed and not realizing first
> > > things 
> > > > first. If you look at Zen Masters, Texts, and Sufi Masters, you will 
> > > > find
> > > plenty 
> > > > of address about having your mind on the wrong things first --
> > > enlightenment. 
> > > > The Sufis would address this as a sort of greed that operates and is
> > > furthered 
> > > > in the Nafs, The Commmanding Self, that is overlayed with personal
> > > experiences, 
> > > > wrong education, trauma, prejudices, opinions, and all the seven deadly
> > > sins. 
> > > > Oftentimes we bring our lower instincts into our practice without ever
> > > realizing 
> > > > it, through worldly conditioning. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I have witnessed plenty of ego maniacs who are very clear in terms of
> > > their 
> > > > meditation practice, or their pious dedication to their path, but are as
> > > greedy 
> > > > as if they were thieves. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Now, having said that, I realize that I am a thief as well, robbing this
> > > and 
> > > > taking that. Now we are in the realm of what a Zen Buddhist Master used 
> > > > to
> > > talk 
> > > > about -- the big doubt. He was not doubting the tradition, but doubting
> > > our own 
> > > > sincerity and utilization of the tradition. This can be useful, make us
> > > human 
> > > > and humble . . . keep us from being big shits, big know it alls, big
> > > kahunas . . 
> > > > . there are big kahunas in Zen and big Kahunas in Sufism too, in fact 
> > > > lots
> > > more 
> > > > in Sufism, since it has a devotional nature to teachers at times. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I think what is needed sometimes is fresh perspective on an ancient
> > > message. 
> > > > That is pretty much it. There is really nothing new, and I don't say 
> > > > this
> > > to 
> > > > bring attention to myself, although there is that, we are all looking 
> > > > for 
> > > > attention, or we would be doing something else, but also as a reminder. 
> > > > As
> > > the 
> > > > Sufis say, we are forgetful people. Remembrance on the path is a useful
> > > tool. We 
> > > > want to keep our practice and path alive and vital, not by rote, fall
> > > victim to 
> > > > Japanese cultural customs of order and clarity. This is a by-product of
> > > Soto 
> > > > Zen, and only gets you so far -- a bad imitation of Japanese
> > > practitioners. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > At times I am very excited to see the expression of Zen Buddhism in
> > > America, it 
> > > > appears to be trying to keep the tradition alive and deal with cultural 
> > > > conditioning that might not be applicable. Let's keep in mind the
> > > expression of 
> > > > Chan in China and then Zen in Japan. Once again, the Sufis have 
> > > > addressed
> > > this 
> > > > thoroughly, in terms of pluralism -- one path, many permissions. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > As anyone might be able to gather my area of practice and specialization
> > > has 
> > > > been mostly Soto Zen and Sufism. I have delved into the Hermetic
> > > traditions 
> > > > considerably, as they related to Sufism. I have not joined the Tibetan 
> > > > discussion but have found it interesting, since I know very little about
> > > the 
> > > > Dalai Lama other than he wears glasses and has a nice smile and appears 
> > > > to
> > > be 
> > > > everywhere. I don't know much about the Basques either, other than 
> > > > Ernest 
> > > > Hemingway sure thought they were swell. So hopefully my offerings will
> > > serve as 
> > > > crumbs to strengthen you heart in the path, nor detract. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Thank you all for letting me post here . . . 
> > > > 
> > > > Donkey is never happy.
> > > > 
> > > > K among the permissive
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > > "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kirk wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > I think it is safe to say that Zen is a path that addresses the
> > > > > > experiential with zazen as its central methodology -- a sort of
> > > > > undoing of yourself,
> > > > > > the conditioned cultural and experiential part of your personality
> > > > > that
> > > > > > continuously reacts and feeds your ego.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of it this way, while you are reading this you are already
> > > > > reacting
> > > > > > inside in an automatic way. Zen seeks to loosen the bounds of your
> > > > > false
> > > > > > self and return you to your natural state. Part of the reason why 
> > > > > > Zen
> > > > > > honors spontaneity, clarity, nature and a sense of the primordial
> > > > > untouched
> > > > > > mother that feeds us all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Greetings!
> > > > > 
> > > > > I resonate strongly with the above statements on zen. Does anyone 
> > > > > hold a
> > > > > different perspective?
> > > > > 
> > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
> > > > > ,
> > > novelidea8@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my estimation there really is no way to assert what Zen is, 
> > > > > > whether
> > > > > you
> > > > > > are restricting it to zazen; or opening it to a wider religious and
> > > > > > cultural discussion. The best we can do is just admit we fall short
> > > > > and perhaps
> > > > > > point to our own experience, to presence. Of course we could ask
> > > > > ourselves
> > > > > > who is being present?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So repeating zazen zazen zazen with platitudes to support it, or
> > > > > explaining
> > > > > > big Zen and little zen, does do much but tell us something about who
> > > > > is
> > > > > > doing the talking and perhaps who is doing the listening here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it is safe to say that Zen is a path that addresses the
> > > > > > experiential with zazen as its central methodology -- a sort of
> > > > > undoing of yourself,
> > > > > > the conditioned cultural and experiential part of your personality
> > > > > that
> > > > > > continuously reacts and feeds your ego.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Think of it this way, while you are reading this you are already
> > > > > reacting
> > > > > > inside in an automatic way. Zen seeks to loosen the bounds of your
> > > > > false
> > > > > > self and return you to your natural state. Part of the reason why 
> > > > > > Zen
> > > > > > honors spontaneity, clarity, nature and a sense of the primordial
> > > > > untouched
> > > > > > mother that feeds us all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In this respect Zen shares a great deal in common with Sufism,
> > > > > although the
> > > > > > methods might be a great deal different.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kirk
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> > > signature
> > > database 5448 (20100913) __________
> > > 
> > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> > > 
> > > http://www.eset.com
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >
>




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