*bows* to Edgar / all,
I've been away for a coupla days, and am 133 messages behind, so my brief 
comments  on this may be out of  place, but here is my thought as I read this...
Perhaps it doesn't matter  whether  there is, or isn't a "God", or some 
super-natural "Force".  In the end, it is the insistent debate humans continue 
to wage.  This belief and psychology is what, I think,  will ultimately bring  
about the final destruction of life on this earth. Probably doesn't matter what 
my karma is, or what deeds I have done, because the world leaders will 
ultimately direct the actions as a result of their own beliefs and theology , 
(or lack of same),  to thus cause the final showdown predicted in the end 
chapter of sacred texts of varying religions. 
"We", (hunan), bring about our own unhappiness and  destruction, beause, in my 
view, there seems to be a desperate need to be right, to find security in a 
heavenly parent to protect us, and find comfort in our need for  certainty .  
Its  a paradox. The ultimate oxymoron to me.  
What can be done about humanity planning their own destruction? What is so 
wrong about agreeing to disagree.  Even your statement here, Edgar,  is 
completely  disavowed this  week by Robert Thurman, in his radio show, as he 
indeed insists that there has always been a belief in several Gods by 
Buddhists, including Z/zen-ists. He goes on to say that anyone who  states 
otherwise is a distortion of the actual history. *sigh*  
I have always been a pretty critical person as the daughter of a very critical 
parent.  But in my old age, I'm learning that there is no such thing as the 
truth or even a fact.  Its simply one's perception of it.

--- On Thu, 9/16/10, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Can I practise Zen and still believe in God?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, September 16, 2010, 4:17 AM



There is certainly immense intelligence embodied in the universe but it is not 
the God imagined by Christians. The Christian God as usually thought of is a 
delusion and delusions are the antithesis of Zen which deals only with reality 
as it actually is. Anyone who believes in the usual Christian God does not know 


On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:16 PM, DP wrote:


I have reconciled Zen and my Christian practise, if not beliefs - there seems 
to be little contrary to Zen in practising compassion towards others and 
showing mercy, which to me are the core of Jesus's teachings. Believing in God 
might be another thing, however. From what I understand, Buddhism and Zen do 
not deny the existence of God(s) but stress their non-importance to 
enlightenment. As long as I do not cling to an image of God (which the 
Abrahamic religions actually warn against in their admonition of idolatry) can 
I still be open to the presence of some intelligence to the universe? Or is 
that un-Zen?


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