I could not have said it better myself. But my minister has always left me with 
something to think about.

It was while learning about Buddhism that I came to the conclusion that it 
doesn't matter whether Jesus was the son of God or whether he was resurrected. 
What matters is what he said.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane <ch...@...> wrote:
>
> And on that note, zazen is an excellent way to change the nature of one's 
> worship in a Christian church. One just stands, just sings, just kneels, just 
> eats, just prays together as a group. 
> 
> Church worship is not fundamentally about what humans think. 
> 
> There is more to Christianity than the cartoons on the TV and more than the 
> pockets of narrow minded people using that religion to justify their hateful 
> child rearing and other petty practices. 
> 
> Intellectual Christians have always made a difference between the Word of God 
> and "the words of God.". A serious reading of the Bible leaves the idea that 
> it is the words of God as a relatively meaningless statement. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris Austin-Lane
> Sent from a cell phone
> 
> On Oct 3, 2010, at 7:41, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Well~~  I think buddhism and certainly zen are  anti-intellectual. In zen,  
> > we  aim to get rid of our head. The idea is to get out of your own way..
> >  
> > Kristy 
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 10/3/10, DP <wookielife...@...> wrote:
> > 
> > From: DP <wookielife...@...>
> > Subject: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 8:21 AM
> > 
> > Are you a Christian? If not, you are speaking as an outsider. That simply 
> > does not represent the Christianity I've been exposed to.
> > 
> > The Bible is a complicated book compiled from many different sources who 
> > were trying to understand their world. I don't accept the idea of "is it 
> > the word of God or not?" I see representation of the divine in much 
> > literature.
> > 
> > If "anything gay is not mainstream in the mainstream," then why even bring 
> > it up as a criticism of Christianity? 
> > 
> > Again, I find you have created a false dichotomy between a narrow 
> > definition of Christianity and rejecting that. This is exactly what I feel 
> > I have to deal with elsewhere. I'm trying to be civil about this, but I 
> > don't know if I should keep arguing. But when you say Christians should 
> > "suck it up," and stay out of politics, or when you claim that thought is 
> > not encouraged by Christians, I get rather upset.
> > 
> > I should point out that at their most extreme the "internet atheists" do 
> > not spare Buddhism, claiming it is, of all things, anti-intellectual.
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > DP,
> > > 
> > > Is the Bible is the word of god - or not? My comments may be 
> > > generalisations to 
> > > you, but to me they are the key tenets/dogma of Christian faith. You say 
> > > your 
> > > church ordains gay priests and is mainstream. That's great, but 
> > > anything 'gay' 
> > > is not even mainstream in the mainstream never mind within Christianity. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mike 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sat, 2 October, 2010 12:21:25
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > church.
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > DP, 
> > > > 
> > > > Not sure how you could be personally "offended" by a criticism of 
> > > > theology. 
> > > > Actually, I think all this being 'offended' by religious folk is a bit 
> > > > rich 
> > > > coming from people who don't blink an eye to tell gays they're an 
> > > > abomination 
> > > >or 
> > > >
> > > > women who have abortions are murderers etc etc etc. Suck it up. I also 
> > > > think 
> > > >you 
> > > >
> > > > misunderstood me aout that survey. I don't think purported Christians 
> > > > can 
> > > > understand the intricacies of theology when they don't even know who 
> > > > delivered 
> > > 
> > > > the Sermon on the Mount. That indicates to me that Christians are told 
> > > > what 
> > > > theological dogmas to believe without much independant inquiry. To me 
> > > > that's 
> > > > dangerous especially they get into our schools and systems of 
> > > > government (hence 
> > > >
> > > > the topic headline above).
> > > 
> > > Wow, lots of generalization there. My church has ordained gay ministers 
> > > for 
> > > almost 20 years. There is no official position on abortion. Again, they 
> > > are in 
> > > the mainstream, not a "liberal" church. I have read many books about 
> > > theology 
> > > and find it quite interesting, and I don't think it's fair to dismiss it 
> > > out of 
> > > hand.. So pardon me, but yes, I am offended when people assume I'm a 
> > > bigot 
> > > because of my beliefs. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Again, there have been many cases of progressive movements being led by 
> > > church 
> > > groups. Ever heard of the Berrigan brothers?
> > > 
> > > "Who did the Sermon On the Mount" wasn't one of the questions, btw.
> > > > 
> > > > Mike 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sat, 2 October, 2010 1:37:46
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > > church.
> > > > 
> > > >   
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > DP,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks for the reply. It's probably difficult, if not impossible, to 
> > > > > keep 
> > > > > religion out of politics in the sense that politicians have personal 
> > > > > beliefs 
> > > 
> > > > > that may impact on their personal decision making. However, we in the 
> > > > > west 
> > > > > mostly live in secular societies and overt religious decisions should 
> > > > > stay 
> > > >the 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > hell (excuse the pun) out of legislative decisions that affect all 
> > > > > citizens. 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, I don't know how far that can go. People talk about taxing 
> > > > churches where 
> > > >
> > > > the ministers make overt political statements. Couldn't that have been 
> > > > used to 
> > > 
> > > > suppress Martin Luther King? As well, on the international scene and I 
> > > > think of 
> > > >
> > > > Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, whose faith has sustained them. Dennis 
> > > >Kucinich 
> > > >
> > > > is another example of someone whose faith (Roman Catholic with a bit of 
> > > > existentialism thrown in) has resulted in progressive politics. the 
> > > > abolitionists were often religious (Quakers, etc). 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I object to your subject line, because in my (admittedly short) years 
> > > > as a 
> > > > church goer I have never, ever been told not to think. Quite the 
> > > > opposite, in 
> > > > fact. And it's not like I go to a small "new age Christian" church, but 
> > > > one of 
> > > 
> > > > the mainline churches in Canada.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'd also argue with you over the point about atheists knowing the 
> > > > > answers to 
> > > 
> > > > > aÃÆ'‚ÂÂ religious survey but not understanding the 
> > > > > intricacies of theology. If 
> > > > >someone 
> > > > >
> > > > > doesn't know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount they sure as hell 
> > > > > (there I 
> > > >
> > > > >go 
> > > > >
> > > > > again) don't understand the "intricacies" of 
> > > > > theology.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mike.
> > > > > 
> > > > I'm more offended, to be honest, but putting "intricacies" in quotes. 
> > > > Theology 
> > > 
> > > > is quite a large and varied field. and that wasn't my point. My point 
> > > > was that 
> > > 
> > > > these people were gloating over "knowing more" (in fact, an average of 
> > > > 4 
> > > > questions more) than religious people, as if they had understood all of 
> > > >religion 
> > > >
> > > > better than all those who practise it. These were questions like "what 
> > > > religion 
> > > >
> > > > was Mother Theresa," and while it's shocking that many people didn't 
> > > > know that, 
> > > >
> > > > in terms of religion it's the equivalent of "what year did Columbus 
> > > > sail" is to 
> > > >
> > > > history.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 23:16:46
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, there are ways that politics and religion/spirituality 
> > > > > intersect that 
> > > >are 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (for me) fruitful and interesting. The debate over Obama's old 
> > > > > minister, for 
> > > 
> > > > > example, could have led to a mainstream introduction to Liberation 
> > > > > Theology. 
> > > >Or 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > we could talk about "Creation Care," the Evangelical environmental 
> > > > > movement. 
> > > 
> > > > > Instead, there are constant threads about keeping religion out of 
> > > > > politics, 
> > > >and 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > how atheists are smarter, more moral and more compassionate than 
> > > > > religious 
> > > > > people. The latest has been about how atheists did better than 
> > > > > religiouis 
> > > > >people 
> > > > >
> > > > > on a quiz about religion. I thought the quiz was superficial, and 
> > > > > that just 
> > > > > because the atheists knew the answers they didn't know the 
> > > > > intricacies of 
> > > > > theology. Of course, I was ridiculed for even arguing that theology 
> > > > > was 
> > > > >complex.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So yes, some hurt feelings and envy over the people who have "the 
> > > > > truth." but 
> > > >
> > > > > also frustration because I think that it's our emphasis on 
> > > > > materialism (in 
> > > >all 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > senses of the word) that causes a lot of the world's problems.
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi DP,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Could you elaborate on this a bit more: "As well, I am frustrated 
> > > > > > that the 
> > > 
> > > > > > section of the political forum dedicated to religion is dominated 
> > > > > > by the 
> > > > > > atheists."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 7:58:28
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ  
> > > > > > I appreciate your comments, and your story. That is strange, and 
> > > > > > yet not 
> > > > > > uncommon from what I've heard. OTOH, it's a valuable metaphor for 
> > > > > > how we 
> > > > > > experience the world. We ultimately really don't know. And perhaps 
> > > > > > what I 
> > > > >feel 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > is envy over their illusion of certainty (which they definitely 
> > > > > > present)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And yet another part of it is that I feel that some of the issues 
> > > > > > in the 
> > > > >world 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > (this is a political forum that I'm talking about) need a spiritual 
> > > > > > outlook 
> > > >
> > > > >as 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > well as a real world, material component. Certainly the idea of 
> > > > > > "there is 
> > > > > > nothing more to this world, and when you die that's it" seems to 
> > > > > > counter 
> > > >any 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > sense of hope for the future, at least in my opinion.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As well, I am frustrated that the section of the political forum 
> > > > > > dedicated 
> > > >to 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > religion is dominated by the atheists.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I guess if I *was* more secure in my beliefs I wouldn't let it 
> > > > > > bother me.
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *bows to all*
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but after reading DP's 
> > > > > > > posts on 
> > > >
> > > > > >this, 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >iÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  decided to share an experience i am having right 
> > > >now..
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > To begin, I was struck when 
> > > > > > > youÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   wrote that what 
> > > >really bothers you 
> > > >
> > > > >is 
> > > > >
> > > > > >that 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >people attack you 
> > > > > > >aboutÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  what the "truth" is when it 
> > > >comes to 
> > > >
> > > > >religion.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >have said before here that, in my view, there really is no such 
> > > > > > >thing as 
> > > > >"the" 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >truth or even "a" 
> > > > > > >truth.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Its simply one's perception 
> > > >of it--beit 
> > > >
> > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >person, 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >idea, 
> > > > > > >theologyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  or 
> > > > > > >event.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  The need 
> > > >to be right or somehow 
> > > >
> > > > >prove that 
> > > > >
> > > > > >one 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >person's perception is correct and therefore, another's is wrong, 
> > > > > > >is at 
> > > > > >theÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >heart of our societal and global conflicts.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I think most of that is ego-driven, but to pretend or deny that 
> > > > > > > humans 
> > > > >don't 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >have egos is equally 
> > > > > > >foolish.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Its okay to have 
> > > >opinions, beliefs, 
> > > >
> > > > >values 
> > > > >
> > > > > >and 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >moral 
> > > > > > >constructs.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  I think the 
> > > >danger of 
> > > >egoÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  in 
> > > >
> > > > >this is when one 
> > > > >
> > > > > >insists 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >their viewiint is the only correct 
> > > > > > >one.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  agree with Chris-- great wisdom there when he 
> > > >suggests that when 
> > > >
> > > > >you do 
> > > > >
> > > > > >not 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >respond to some flaming post or insult or complaint, you actually 
> > > > >demonstrate 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >greater emotional maturity, and they are aware you maintain your 
> > > > > > >views, 
> > > >but 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > >are 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >now moving on to the more important matters of your real life.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I also agree with 
> > > > > > > Bill.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   Such 
> > > >mattersÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  cannot be analized 
> > > >
> > > > >in some 
> > > > >
> > > > > >logical 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >frame.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  If you have faith-- 
> > > > > > >thenÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >logic has little to do 
> > > >
> > > > >with it, and 
> > > > >
> > > > > > >perhapsÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >useÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >yourÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  faith that perhaps your message 
> > > >
> > > > >will resonate 
> > > > >
> > > > > >somehow via 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >less tangible means.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Now, as I am now facing a problem that started with internet 
> > > > > > > discussion, 
> > > 
> > > > >but 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >has now become a real life threat, 
> > > > > > >IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  must caution 
> > > >others to beware 
> > > >
> > > > >those 
> > > > >
> > > > > > >on-line who indeed may have psychiatric buttons you do not want to 
> > > >inflame.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > The man I've written about here who claims a lifetime of trauma , 
> > > > > > > abuse, 
> > > 
> > > > > > >tragedy and drama is at it again. 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  After calmly making 
> > > >it clear to 
> > > >
> > > > >him 
> > > > >
> > > > > >that I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >will no longer be a part of his self-created dramas, but 
> > > >wishÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  him 
> > > >
> > > > >well-- 
> > > > >
> > > > > >the 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >followingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > events have unfolded..
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I received an e-mail from a man claiming to be an ordained 
> > > > > > > minister, 
> > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > and 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >friend of this 
> > > > > > >man.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Telling me that 
> > > >****ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  was in a serious 
> > > >
> > > > >car 
> > > > >
> > > > > >accidentÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  and 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >has been taken to a local 
> > > > > > >hospital..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Stating 
> > > >thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  the 
> > > >
> > > > >eventÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >details were 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >still unclear, but reassuring me this man is 
> > > > > > >alive.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >Etc., 
> > > >
> > > > >etc..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > He 
> > > > >
> > > > > >offers his 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >e-mail if I have questions or concers.. as if I must certainly 
> > > >beÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > > >anxiouslyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >awaiting any information on this tragic 
> > > > > > >event.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Certain that this is more of the same 
> > > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   do not reply 
> > > >or 
> > > >
> > > > >respond.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > For 
> > > > >
> > > > > >people 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >with this type 
> > > > > > >ofÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  psychological disorder which is to a 
> > > >large 
> > > >
> > > > >degreeÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > > >attention-seeking,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  grandiose ideation, and other 
> > > >symtoms.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >There is a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >bit of 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >narcissisism, but his whole personality is more complex, and best 
> > > > > > >left to 
> > > >be 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >diagnosed by medical professionals.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > But I do know the worst thing you can do to such a person is 
> > > > > > > ignore 
> > > > >them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Though it is the only appropriate and sane 
> > > > > > >respomseÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > or 
> > > 
> > > > >treatment.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I received a second e-mail a day later stating that the car was 
> > > > > > > totally 
> > > > > > >destroyed, 
> > > > > > >andÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  he had retrieved the personal 
> > > >belongings (and cell 
> > > >
> > > > > >phone)ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  of 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >our "friend", and encouraged me tio call him with support. He is 
> > > > > > >being 
> > > > > > >transferred to another 
> > > > > > >hospital.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >Reminding me to keep jim 
> > > >
> > > > >in 
> > > > >ourÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >heart and 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >prayers. And 
> > > > > > >soÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  and so on.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Again, I do not respond, and suspect 
> > > > > > > thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   the person 
> > > >writing the 
> > > >
> > > > >e-mails 
> > > > >
> > > > > >is 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >indeedÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  my "friend" himself. 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > This morning, i received a third e-mail from this minister friend 
> > > > > > > of the 
> > > 
> > > > > >man.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Starting out with telling me that the man in the hospital had 
> > > >toldÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >him a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >bit 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >of what i said to him.. and could not believe how i could be so 
> > > > > > >horrible 
> > > >to 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > >such 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >a wonderful, decent, giving 
> > > > > > >manÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Etc., 
> > > >Etc.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  It escalated 
> > > >
> > > > >into a temper 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >tantrum on-line with 
> > > > > > >capitalizedÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  angry retorts and 
> > > > >profanity.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >(Ministers 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >aren'tÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > what they used to be) 
> > > *sigh*
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > At this point, I know I'm dealing with a very unbalanced 
> > > > > > > individual who 
> > > >is 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > >indeed in psychic 
> > > > > > >pain.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  But this is out of my league. 
> > > >I care deeply 
> > > >
> > > > >about 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >prople and ache for every child on the 
> > > > > > >globe.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > Not 
> > > >knowingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >me, its 
> > > > >
> > > > > >hardÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  for 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >anyone here to 
> > > > > > >knowÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >myÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >realÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > heart 
> > > >orÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >values. I am not being 
> > > > >
> > > > > >cruel,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > I am 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >doingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  the right thing for him and 
> > > >myself.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > This 
> > > > > > > isÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   hard on two 
> > > > > > > levels.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   
> > > >First, 
> > > >thisÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  man is 
> > > >
> > > > >much "sicker" 
> > > > >
> > > > > >thanÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >realized, and I am personally 
> > > > > > >afraid.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  He has my 
> > > >address.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  I 
> > > >
> > > > >have 
> > > > >
> > > > > >blocked his 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >numbers from my phones, and will keep all e-mails in a folder for 
> > > > > >evidence.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >But this man does own firearms, is emotionally unstable 
> > > >andÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > I got 
> > > >
> > > > >into this 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >mess by just trying to be a 
> > > > > > >friendÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  at an interfaith 
> > > >workshop and 
> > > >
> > > > > >discussion 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >group.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > It is times like this 
> > > > > > > thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   having a family of 
> > > >attorneys is 
> > > >
> > > > >comforting. I 
> > > > >
> > > > > >have 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >contacted friends who are MD's and a psychiatrist, and explained 
> > > > > > >the 
> > > > > >events.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >just want to be left alone, and let the medical personnel where he 
> > > > > > >is sort 
> > > >
> > > > > >this 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >out.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > BUT~~ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   what if its all a lie? If he is seeing all 
> > > >these 
> > > >
> > > > >doctors,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  they 
> > > > >
> > > > > >are 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >going to pick 
> > > >upÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > >onÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > >this.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  But if he 
> > > >is just a 
> > > >
> > > > >neurotic man behind a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >computer 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >screen, I have reason to fear.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > My point is-- 
> > > > > > > sheezus--ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   take a 
> > > >breath.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  Stand by your 
> > > >
> > > > >convictions if 
> > > > >
> > > > > >its 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >important to 
> > > > > > >you.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Let 
> > > > > > >go.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  The 
> > > >other option is surrender to 
> > > >
> > > > >listening 
> > > > >
> > > > > >to 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >others views with a softened 
> > > > > > >heart.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  We all have the 
> > > >right to have 
> > > >
> > > > >our on 
> > > > >
> > > > > > >viewpoint, so long as it does not hurt self or others. Or maybe 
> > > > > > >get a new 
> > > 
> > > > > > >hobby:)
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > KristyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > --- On Thu, 9/30/10, DP <wookielifeday@> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] More about arguments and ego
> > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 12:51 PM
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I've thought some more about my problrm with getting into 
> > > > > > > arguments on 
> > > >the 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > >internet. I think that the internet has fueled a certain type of 
> > > > > > >ugliness 
> > > >in 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >arguments, with its tendency towards short comments that snipe at 
> > > >miniscule 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > >errors in one's posts. I want to walk away, and yet I hate the 
> > > > > > >idea of the 
> > > >
> > > > > > >bullies winning the argument.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I find that in religious discussions the "internet atheists" (a 
> > > > > > > specific 
> > > 
> > > > >term 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >for these type of arguers, not all atheists) tend to crowd out 
> > > > > > >people who 
> > > 
> > > > >want 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >to sincerely discuss religion on particular forums, so I get 
> > > > > > >frustrated. 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But here's where the ego comes in. Obviously, there is ego 
> > > > > > > involved in 
> > > > > >winning 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >an argument, but there is also some ego in leaving. I feel like 
> > > > > > >I'm saying 
> > > >
> > > > > >"i'm 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >taking my ball and going home."
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > As well, i'm very insecure about my beliefs, and I feel like I'm 
> > > > > > > somehow 
> > > 
> > > > >not 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >worthy of my arguments. How does insecurity relate to ego, or is 
> > > > > > >that a 
> > > > > > >completely different question?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>


------------------------------------

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