Hello Chris again:

It sounds good the openeness you're experiencing.  I wouldn't say that is only 
zen what it changes the way a Christian new approaching but a summary of 
different experiences.  And the key is always to keep an open mind.  Allowing 
the heart to be manifested in all its non discriminative way flowing in 
complete freedom.

Mayka

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane <ch...@...> wrote:
>
> And on that note, zazen is an excellent way to change the nature of one's 
> worship in a Christian church. One just stands, just sings, just kneels, just 
> eats, just prays together as a group. 
> 
> Church worship is not fundamentally about what humans think. 
> 
> There is more to Christianity than the cartoons on the TV and more than the 
> pockets of narrow minded people using that religion to justify their hateful 
> child rearing and other petty practices. 
> 
> Intellectual Christians have always made a difference between the Word of God 
> and "the words of God.". A serious reading of the Bible leaves the idea that 
> it is the words of God as a relatively meaningless statement. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris Austin-Lane
> Sent from a cell phone
> 
> On Oct 3, 2010, at 7:41, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Well~~  I think buddhism and certainly zen are  anti-intellectual. In zen,  
> > we  aim to get rid of our head. The idea is to get out of your own way..
> >  
> > Kristy 
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 10/3/10, DP <wookielife...@...> wrote:
> > 
> > From: DP <wookielife...@...>
> > Subject: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 8:21 AM
> > 
> > Are you a Christian? If not, you are speaking as an outsider. That simply 
> > does not represent the Christianity I've been exposed to.
> > 
> > The Bible is a complicated book compiled from many different sources who 
> > were trying to understand their world. I don't accept the idea of "is it 
> > the word of God or not?" I see representation of the divine in much 
> > literature.
> > 
> > If "anything gay is not mainstream in the mainstream," then why even bring 
> > it up as a criticism of Christianity? 
> > 
> > Again, I find you have created a false dichotomy between a narrow 
> > definition of Christianity and rejecting that. This is exactly what I feel 
> > I have to deal with elsewhere. I'm trying to be civil about this, but I 
> > don't know if I should keep arguing. But when you say Christians should 
> > "suck it up," and stay out of politics, or when you claim that thought is 
> > not encouraged by Christians, I get rather upset.
> > 
> > I should point out that at their most extreme the "internet atheists" do 
> > not spare Buddhism, claiming it is, of all things, anti-intellectual.
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > DP,
> > > 
> > > Is the Bible is the word of god - or not? My comments may be 
> > > generalisations to 
> > > you, but to me they are the key tenets/dogma of Christian faith. You say 
> > > your 
> > > church ordains gay priests and is mainstream. That's great, but 
> > > anything 'gay' 
> > > is not even mainstream in the mainstream never mind within Christianity. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mike 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sat, 2 October, 2010 12:21:25
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > church.
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > DP, 
> > > > 
> > > > Not sure how you could be personally "offended" by a criticism of 
> > > > theology. 
> > > > Actually, I think all this being 'offended' by religious folk is a bit 
> > > > rich 
> > > > coming from people who don't blink an eye to tell gays they're an 
> > > > abomination 
> > > >or 
> > > >
> > > > women who have abortions are murderers etc etc etc. Suck it up. I also 
> > > > think 
> > > >you 
> > > >
> > > > misunderstood me aout that survey. I don't think purported Christians 
> > > > can 
> > > > understand the intricacies of theology when they don't even know who 
> > > > delivered 
> > > 
> > > > the Sermon on the Mount. That indicates to me that Christians are told 
> > > > what 
> > > > theological dogmas to believe without much independant inquiry. To me 
> > > > that's 
> > > > dangerous especially they get into our schools and systems of 
> > > > government (hence 
> > > >
> > > > the topic headline above).
> > > 
> > > Wow, lots of generalization there. My church has ordained gay ministers 
> > > for 
> > > almost 20 years. There is no official position on abortion. Again, they 
> > > are in 
> > > the mainstream, not a "liberal" church. I have read many books about 
> > > theology 
> > > and find it quite interesting, and I don't think it's fair to dismiss it 
> > > out of 
> > > hand.. So pardon me, but yes, I am offended when people assume I'm a 
> > > bigot 
> > > because of my beliefs. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Again, there have been many cases of progressive movements being led by 
> > > church 
> > > groups. Ever heard of the Berrigan brothers?
> > > 
> > > "Who did the Sermon On the Mount" wasn't one of the questions, btw.
> > > > 
> > > > Mike 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sat, 2 October, 2010 1:37:46
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > > church.
> > > > 
> > > >   
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > DP,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks for the reply. It's probably difficult, if not impossible, to 
> > > > > keep 
> > > > > religion out of politics in the sense that politicians have personal 
> > > > > beliefs 
> > > 
> > > > > that may impact on their personal decision making. However, we in the 
> > > > > west 
> > > > > mostly live in secular societies and overt religious decisions should 
> > > > > stay 
> > > >the 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > hell (excuse the pun) out of legislative decisions that affect all 
> > > > > citizens. 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, I don't know how far that can go. People talk about taxing 
> > > > churches where 
> > > >
> > > > the ministers make overt political statements. Couldn't that have been 
> > > > used to 
> > > 
> > > > suppress Martin Luther King? As well, on the international scene and I 
> > > > think of 
> > > >
> > > > Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, whose faith has sustained them. Dennis 
> > > >Kucinich 
> > > >
> > > > is another example of someone whose faith (Roman Catholic with a bit of 
> > > > existentialism thrown in) has resulted in progressive politics. the 
> > > > abolitionists were often religious (Quakers, etc). 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I object to your subject line, because in my (admittedly short) years 
> > > > as a 
> > > > church goer I have never, ever been told not to think. Quite the 
> > > > opposite, in 
> > > > fact. And it's not like I go to a small "new age Christian" church, but 
> > > > one of 
> > > 
> > > > the mainline churches in Canada.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'd also argue with you over the point about atheists knowing the 
> > > > > answers to 
> > > 
> > > > > aÃÆ'‚ÂÂ religious survey but not understanding the 
> > > > > intricacies of theology. If 
> > > > >someone 
> > > > >
> > > > > doesn't know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount they sure as hell 
> > > > > (there I 
> > > >
> > > > >go 
> > > > >
> > > > > again) don't understand the "intricacies" of 
> > > > > theology.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mike.
> > > > > 
> > > > I'm more offended, to be honest, but putting "intricacies" in quotes. 
> > > > Theology 
> > > 
> > > > is quite a large and varied field. and that wasn't my point. My point 
> > > > was that 
> > > 
> > > > these people were gloating over "knowing more" (in fact, an average of 
> > > > 4 
> > > > questions more) than religious people, as if they had understood all of 
> > > >religion 
> > > >
> > > > better than all those who practise it. These were questions like "what 
> > > > religion 
> > > >
> > > > was Mother Theresa," and while it's shocking that many people didn't 
> > > > know that, 
> > > >
> > > > in terms of religion it's the equivalent of "what year did Columbus 
> > > > sail" is to 
> > > >
> > > > history.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 23:16:46
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, there are ways that politics and religion/spirituality 
> > > > > intersect that 
> > > >are 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (for me) fruitful and interesting. The debate over Obama's old 
> > > > > minister, for 
> > > 
> > > > > example, could have led to a mainstream introduction to Liberation 
> > > > > Theology. 
> > > >Or 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > we could talk about "Creation Care," the Evangelical environmental 
> > > > > movement. 
> > > 
> > > > > Instead, there are constant threads about keeping religion out of 
> > > > > politics, 
> > > >and 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > how atheists are smarter, more moral and more compassionate than 
> > > > > religious 
> > > > > people. The latest has been about how atheists did better than 
> > > > > religiouis 
> > > > >people 
> > > > >
> > > > > on a quiz about religion. I thought the quiz was superficial, and 
> > > > > that just 
> > > > > because the atheists knew the answers they didn't know the 
> > > > > intricacies of 
> > > > > theology. Of course, I was ridiculed for even arguing that theology 
> > > > > was 
> > > > >complex.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So yes, some hurt feelings and envy over the people who have "the 
> > > > > truth." but 
> > > >
> > > > > also frustration because I think that it's our emphasis on 
> > > > > materialism (in 
> > > >all 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > senses of the word) that causes a lot of the world's problems.
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi DP,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Could you elaborate on this a bit more: "As well, I am frustrated 
> > > > > > that the 
> > > 
> > > > > > section of the political forum dedicated to religion is dominated 
> > > > > > by the 
> > > > > > atheists."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 7:58:28
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ  
> > > > > > I appreciate your comments, and your story. That is strange, and 
> > > > > > yet not 
> > > > > > uncommon from what I've heard. OTOH, it's a valuable metaphor for 
> > > > > > how we 
> > > > > > experience the world. We ultimately really don't know. And perhaps 
> > > > > > what I 
> > > > >feel 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > is envy over their illusion of certainty (which they definitely 
> > > > > > present)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And yet another part of it is that I feel that some of the issues 
> > > > > > in the 
> > > > >world 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > (this is a political forum that I'm talking about) need a spiritual 
> > > > > > outlook 
> > > >
> > > > >as 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > well as a real world, material component. Certainly the idea of 
> > > > > > "there is 
> > > > > > nothing more to this world, and when you die that's it" seems to 
> > > > > > counter 
> > > >any 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > sense of hope for the future, at least in my opinion.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As well, I am frustrated that the section of the political forum 
> > > > > > dedicated 
> > > >to 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > religion is dominated by the atheists.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I guess if I *was* more secure in my beliefs I wouldn't let it 
> > > > > > bother me.
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *bows to all*
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but after reading DP's 
> > > > > > > posts on 
> > > >
> > > > > >this, 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >iÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  decided to share an experience i am having right 
> > > >now..
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > To begin, I was struck when 
> > > > > > > youÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   wrote that what 
> > > >really bothers you 
> > > >
> > > > >is 
> > > > >
> > > > > >that 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >people attack you 
> > > > > > >aboutÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  what the "truth" is when it 
> > > >comes to 
> > > >
> > > > >religion.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >have said before here that, in my view, there really is no such 
> > > > > > >thing as 
> > > > >"the" 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >truth or even "a" 
> > > > > > >truth.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Its simply one's perception 
> > > >of it--beit 
> > > >
> > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >person, 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >idea, 
> > > > > > >theologyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  or 
> > > > > > >event.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  The need 
> > > >to be right or somehow 
> > > >
> > > > >prove that 
> > > > >
> > > > > >one 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >person's perception is correct and therefore, another's is wrong, 
> > > > > > >is at 
> > > > > >theÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >heart of our societal and global conflicts.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I think most of that is ego-driven, but to pretend or deny that 
> > > > > > > humans 
> > > > >don't 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >have egos is equally 
> > > > > > >foolish.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Its okay to have 
> > > >opinions, beliefs, 
> > > >
> > > > >values 
> > > > >
> > > > > >and 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >moral 
> > > > > > >constructs.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  I think the 
> > > >danger of 
> > > >egoÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  in 
> > > >
> > > > >this is when one 
> > > > >
> > > > > >insists 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >their viewiint is the only correct 
> > > > > > >one.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  agree with Chris-- great wisdom there when he 
> > > >suggests that when 
> > > >
> > > > >you do 
> > > > >
> > > > > >not 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >respond to some flaming post or insult or complaint, you actually 
> > > > >demonstrate 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >greater emotional maturity, and they are aware you maintain your 
> > > > > > >views, 
> > > >but 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > >are 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >now moving on to the more important matters of your real life.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I also agree with 
> > > > > > > Bill.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   Such 
> > > >mattersÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  cannot be analized 
> > > >
> > > > >in some 
> > > > >
> > > > > >logical 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >frame.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  If you have faith-- 
> > > > > > >thenÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >logic has little to do 
> > > >
> > > > >with it, and 
> > > > >
> > > > > > >perhapsÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >useÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >yourÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  faith that perhaps your message 
> > > >
> > > > >will resonate 
> > > > >
> > > > > >somehow via 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >less tangible means.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Now, as I am now facing a problem that started with internet 
> > > > > > > discussion, 
> > > 
> > > > >but 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >has now become a real life threat, 
> > > > > > >IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  must caution 
> > > >others to beware 
> > > >
> > > > >those 
> > > > >
> > > > > > >on-line who indeed may have psychiatric buttons you do not want to 
> > > >inflame.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > The man I've written about here who claims a lifetime of trauma , 
> > > > > > > abuse, 
> > > 
> > > > > > >tragedy and drama is at it again. 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  After calmly making 
> > > >it clear to 
> > > >
> > > > >him 
> > > > >
> > > > > >that I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >will no longer be a part of his self-created dramas, but 
> > > >wishÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  him 
> > > >
> > > > >well-- 
> > > > >
> > > > > >the 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >followingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > events have unfolded..
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I received an e-mail from a man claiming to be an ordained 
> > > > > > > minister, 
> > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > and 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >friend of this 
> > > > > > >man.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Telling me that 
> > > >****ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  was in a serious 
> > > >
> > > > >car 
> > > > >
> > > > > >accidentÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  and 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >has been taken to a local 
> > > > > > >hospital..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Stating 
> > > >thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  the 
> > > >
> > > > >eventÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >details were 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >still unclear, but reassuring me this man is 
> > > > > > >alive.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >Etc., 
> > > >
> > > > >etc..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > He 
> > > > >
> > > > > >offers his 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >e-mail if I have questions or concers.. as if I must certainly 
> > > >beÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > > >anxiouslyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >awaiting any information on this tragic 
> > > > > > >event.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Certain that this is more of the same 
> > > > > > > IÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   do not reply 
> > > >or 
> > > >
> > > > >respond.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > For 
> > > > >
> > > > > >people 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >with this type 
> > > > > > >ofÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  psychological disorder which is to a 
> > > >large 
> > > >
> > > > >degreeÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > > >attention-seeking,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  grandiose ideation, and other 
> > > >symtoms.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >There is a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >bit of 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >narcissisism, but his whole personality is more complex, and best 
> > > > > > >left to 
> > > >be 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >diagnosed by medical professionals.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > But I do know the worst thing you can do to such a person is 
> > > > > > > ignore 
> > > > >them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Though it is the only appropriate and sane 
> > > > > > >respomseÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > or 
> > > 
> > > > >treatment.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I received a second e-mail a day later stating that the car was 
> > > > > > > totally 
> > > > > > >destroyed, 
> > > > > > >andÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  he had retrieved the personal 
> > > >belongings (and cell 
> > > >
> > > > > >phone)ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  of 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >our "friend", and encouraged me tio call him with support. He is 
> > > > > > >being 
> > > > > > >transferred to another 
> > > > > > >hospital.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >Reminding me to keep jim 
> > > >
> > > > >in 
> > > > >ourÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >heart and 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >prayers. And 
> > > > > > >soÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  and so on.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Again, I do not respond, and suspect 
> > > > > > > thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   the person 
> > > >writing the 
> > > >
> > > > >e-mails 
> > > > >
> > > > > >is 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >indeedÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  my "friend" himself. 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > This morning, i received a third e-mail from this minister friend 
> > > > > > > of the 
> > > 
> > > > > >man.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Starting out with telling me that the man in the hospital had 
> > > >toldÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >him a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >bit 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >of what i said to him.. and could not believe how i could be so 
> > > > > > >horrible 
> > > >to 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > >such 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >a wonderful, decent, giving 
> > > > > > >manÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Etc., 
> > > >Etc.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  It escalated 
> > > >
> > > > >into a temper 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >tantrum on-line with 
> > > > > > >capitalizedÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  angry retorts and 
> > > > >profanity.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > >(Ministers 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >aren'tÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > what they used to be) 
> > > *sigh*
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > At this point, I know I'm dealing with a very unbalanced 
> > > > > > > individual who 
> > > >is 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > >indeed in psychic 
> > > > > > >pain.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  But this is out of my league. 
> > > >I care deeply 
> > > >
> > > > >about 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >prople and ache for every child on the 
> > > > > > >globe.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > Not 
> > > >knowingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >me, its 
> > > > >
> > > > > >hardÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  for 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >anyone here to 
> > > > > > >knowÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >myÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > >realÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > heart 
> > > >orÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > >values. I am not being 
> > > > >
> > > > > >cruel,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > I am 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >doingÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  the right thing for him and 
> > > >myself.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > This 
> > > > > > > isÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   hard on two 
> > > > > > > levels.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   
> > > >First, 
> > > >thisÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  man is 
> > > >
> > > > >much "sicker" 
> > > > >
> > > > > >thanÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >realized, and I am personally 
> > > > > > >afraid.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  He has my 
> > > >address.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  I 
> > > >
> > > > >have 
> > > > >
> > > > > >blocked his 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >numbers from my phones, and will keep all e-mails in a folder for 
> > > > > >evidence.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >But this man does own firearms, is emotionally unstable 
> > > >andÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > I got 
> > > >
> > > > >into this 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >mess by just trying to be a 
> > > > > > >friendÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  at an interfaith 
> > > >workshop and 
> > > >
> > > > > >discussion 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >group.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > It is times like this 
> > > > > > > thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   having a family of 
> > > >attorneys is 
> > > >
> > > > >comforting. I 
> > > > >
> > > > > >have 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >contacted friends who are MD's and a psychiatrist, and explained 
> > > > > > >the 
> > > > > >events.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > >  I 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >just want to be left alone, and let the medical personnel where he 
> > > > > > >is sort 
> > > >
> > > > > >this 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >out.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > BUT~~ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   what if its all a lie? If he is seeing all 
> > > >these 
> > > >
> > > > >doctors,ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > >  they 
> > > > >
> > > > > >are 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >going to pick 
> > > >upÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > >onÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > 
> > > >this.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  But if he 
> > > >is just a 
> > > >
> > > > >neurotic man behind a 
> > > > >
> > > > > >computer 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >screen, I have reason to fear.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > My point is-- 
> > > > > > > sheezus--ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   take a 
> > > >breath.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >  Stand by your 
> > > >
> > > > >convictions if 
> > > > >
> > > > > >its 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >important to 
> > > > > > >you.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  Let 
> > > > > > >go.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  The 
> > > >other option is surrender to 
> > > >
> > > > >listening 
> > > > >
> > > > > >to 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >others views with a softened 
> > > > > > >heart.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  We all have the 
> > > >right to have 
> > > >
> > > > >our on 
> > > > >
> > > > > > >viewpoint, so long as it does not hurt self or others. Or maybe 
> > > > > > >get a new 
> > > 
> > > > > > >hobby:)
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > KristyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > --- On Thu, 9/30/10, DP <wookielifeday@> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] More about arguments and ego
> > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 12:51 PM
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I've thought some more about my problrm with getting into 
> > > > > > > arguments on 
> > > >the 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > >internet. I think that the internet has fueled a certain type of 
> > > > > > >ugliness 
> > > >in 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >arguments, with its tendency towards short comments that snipe at 
> > > >miniscule 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > > > >errors in one's posts. I want to walk away, and yet I hate the 
> > > > > > >idea of the 
> > > >
> > > > > > >bullies winning the argument.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I find that in religious discussions the "internet atheists" (a 
> > > > > > > specific 
> > > 
> > > > >term 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >for these type of arguers, not all atheists) tend to crowd out 
> > > > > > >people who 
> > > 
> > > > >want 
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >to sincerely discuss religion on particular forums, so I get 
> > > > > > >frustrated. 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But here's where the ego comes in. Obviously, there is ego 
> > > > > > > involved in 
> > > > > >winning 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >an argument, but there is also some ego in leaving. I feel like 
> > > > > > >I'm saying 
> > > >
> > > > > >"i'm 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >taking my ball and going home."
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > As well, i'm very insecure about my beliefs, and I feel like I'm 
> > > > > > > somehow 
> > > 
> > > > >not 
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > > >worthy of my arguments. How does insecurity relate to ego, or is 
> > > > > > >that a 
> > > > > > >completely different question?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>


------------------------------------

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