Edgar,
 
Sure but you both miss my point. My point is that you must use the intelligent 
mind to reach the point where things happen naturally via the whole being.
 
I could not possibly disagree more with you.  But, I do believe we each have  a 
right to find our own path.  I think you are worlds away from the reality you 
discuss.  
 
Or is this just a means to argue a position?  If so, enjoy your fun..
 
Kristy




--- On Tue, 10/5/10, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:


From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 5:22 AM


  



Chris and Bill,


Sure but you both miss my point. My point is that you must use the intelligent 
mind to reach the point where things happen naturally via the whole being.


A great martial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his Zen-like 
responses are the results of years of study and training involving a great deal 
of intelligent study and physical training. Same with recognizing illusions for 
what they are. That is immediate not intellectual experience, but only done 
properly after intense intelligent analysis of the nature of illusion.


Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY thing that stands in the 
way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So the essence of Zen is 
simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so much getting rid of 
illusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but recognizing illusion as 
illusion. That is experiencing reality since reality consists entirely of 
ontological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting through the various forms of illusion.


Edgar









On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:


  



When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your action, but 
indivisible. At that point the things you could think about swimming, things 
you read in books, are not necessary to think. The intelligence is there in the 
action. 
All these words about thoughts vs perceptions seem to have a viewpoint of 
analysis. To analyse without the view point of analysing, you swim, answer 
questions about swimming, give explanations of swimming, all without leaving 
the spot. 


On Oct 4, 2010 6:02 PM, <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:






Edgar,
As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all.
The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything.  I’d say if anything 
it’s anti-attachments.  I myself winced when I sent the post affirming that zen 
is anti-intellectual.  It’s not.
The part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence in zen.  
Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only sensory experience.
Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be benign.  The important 
thing is to discard your attachment to intelligence or any other illusion.  
Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to help orient you in the beginning 
- but it is not necessary.  You can gain information about most anything with 
your intelligence – like reading books or even listening to others talk.
Intelligence can be used to learn to swim or ride a bike.  You can get a 
general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actually swim you 
have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book away.  What you 
have learned using your intelligence might help you then, or it might hinder 
you.  These are functions your body has to learn, not your rational mind.
It’s the same with zen.  
…Bill! 
 




From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Edgar Owen
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 4:53 PM

To: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.comsubject: Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.


 

  




Nonsense. Zen is not anti anything except perhaps illusion. 

 

Intelligence is absolutely necess...


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