Edgar,

Thank you for your support.  Let me elaborate further.

Words, thoughts, concepts and this discussion are all like waves in the ocean. They appear and disappear. One reflects on the other interdependently. The value of all comments posted exists only relative to each other. Like waves in the ocean, it is an endless chase of each other. Searching, quoting online, through wikipedia or dictionary are all for the thinking brain.

Some call this thinking brain our egoic mind. When we are wakened from the impermanent and relative nature of words and concepts, then we may begin to accept the fact, that truth of Chan can only be experienced and not understood.

Perhaps then, we may accept the fact that perhaps we should sit down, shut off our mind and start cultivating our chi, or your Tao, then enter the gateless gate of Chan.

There is really really no other way. :-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 10/5/2010 2:02 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:

JMJM,


An excellent description of the impermanent nature of forms and thus their illusory nature with which I am in agreement. Forms come and go as manifestations of the underlying substance, but the underlying substance is itself unchangeable.

Thanks,
Edgar


On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

If I may jump in here about these important subject matter...

DP asked an excellent question about the nature of illusion. Edgar answered as "chi/tao manifested itself through varius forms of illusion. "

If I may elaborate further...

In Chan, we don't use the term "illusion". You may notice so in all my posts for the last 7/8 years. Chan is defined as the universal life force and wisdom. Edgar called it Tao. Others called it God. Scientists call it Big Ban.

This universal life force, or universal chi for short, manifested everything - planets, air, water, earth, human, trees, flowers - we label them as forms. This universal chi, or mother nature, supports every form in a harmonious way, though every form eventually disappears from our senses. We describe these disappearances as illusive or impermanent.

Therefore, our body, our mind, our thoughts, our words, are all forms, all impermanent, all relative, and all illusive.

Meaning the concept of illusion itself is illusive...

Then, what is reality?  how to experience it?

Chan teaches, "detach from all forms and be in sync with the universal chi."

If I may add, "all forms" includes our thoughts, judgments, analysis, understanding, etc. as well as this post of mine.

JMJM
Head Teacher
Order of Buddha Heart

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 10/5/2010 4:22 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:

Chris and Bill,


Sure but you both miss my point. My point is that you must use the intelligent mind to reach the point where things happen naturally via the whole being.

A great martial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his Zen-like responses are the results of years of study and training involving a great deal of intelligent study and physical training. Same with recognizing illusions for what they are. That is immediate not intellectual experience, but only done properly after intense intelligent analysis of the nature of illusion.

Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY thing that stands in the way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So the essence of Zen is simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so much getting rid of illusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but recognizing illusion as illusion. That is experiencing reality since reality consists entirely of ontological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting through the various forms of illusion.

Edgar




On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:


When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your action, but indivisible. At that point the things you could think about swimming, things you read in books, are not necessary to think. The intelligence is there in the action.

All these words about thoughts vs perceptions seem to have a viewpoint of analysis. To analyse without the view point of analysing, you swim, answer questions about swimming, give explanations of swimming, all without leaving the spot.


On Oct 4, 2010 6:02 PM, <billsm...@hhs1963.org <mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org>> wrote:



Edgar,

As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all.

The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything. I’d say if anything it’s anti-attachments. I myself winced when I sent the post affirming that zen is anti-intellectual. It’s not.

The part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence in zen. Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only sensory experience.

Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be benign. The important thing is to discard your attachment to intelligence or any other illusion. Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to help orient you in the beginning - but it is not necessary. You can gain information about most anything with your intelligence – like reading books or even listening to others talk.

Intelligence can be used to learn to swim or ride a bike. You can get a general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actually swim you have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book away. What you have learned using your intelligence might help you then, or it might hinder you. These are functions your body has to learn, not your rational mind.

It’s the same with zen.

…Bill!


*From:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Edgar Owen
*Sent:* Monday, October 04, 2010 4:53 PM


To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>

*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.





Nonsense. Zen is not anti anything except perhaps illusion.



Intelligence is absolutely necess...



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