JMJM and Bill:
Sorry to intrude between your both interesting conversation but I'd like to 
contribute to it too: 
The way I experience "Just This"  is that the form and the non form interbeing 
with each other.  I would disagree with Bill here saying that excludes de 
form.  The form takes part of the experience of "Just This".  "Just This is in 
continuous motion.  It's the now travelling in the now.
eg; I have a big nice peach in my two hands. 
 I look at it (I use my eyes to look at it. Eyes=Form).  
I bring the peach to my lips (movement=Form, Lips=Form)
Hmmm...what a pleasant smell (smell=form, thought=Form)
....and etc.
What it happens with just this is that there is no attachment to the motion and 
all sensations, thoughts, images etc etc.
Another example will be the clap of a hand.  Sound=Form
The form and the non form are not separated from each other.  They're one.  The 
form is in the non form and the non form is in the form. Even the 
Prajnaparamita Sutra can confirm this: "...Emptiness is form, form is 
--- On Wed, 24/11/10, <> wrote:

From: <>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 4:10



I think what you expressed in the attached email is essentially correct. I do 
use 'Just THIS!' to express emptiness, and the absence of forms.

I have always assumed that when I use the term ‘illusions’ or 
‘concepts’ it is the same as your use of the word ‘form’.

I don’t reject or completely ignore forms, in fact I use them all the time. 
I’m using them right now. I’ve always said that my zen practice involves 
learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the 
knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance.

'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. 
However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a 
text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 
'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only 
involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is 
to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 
'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain 
the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on 
emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we 

Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings?


From: [] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM
Subject: [Zen] Perhaps

Hi Bill,

You stated that Shigantaza is "just this". If "just this" is indeed 
Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you 
channel most postings to "just this" as the singular truth and others as 

For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that 
we use. I believe that your "illusory" is equate to my "form". If so, 
then "just this", or "clear mind", is not "as is", as per our previous 

"As is" in my posts includes everything. It includes all the "forms", 
as well as "clear mind" and a "heart with harmonious intentions". In 
other words, "as is" includes both "illusions" and "clear mind" of 
yours, plus "pure heart without other impulses".

You are separating "Just this" from all "illusions", which is not wrong, 
while we teach to accept all "forms" as well as maintaining a "clear 
mind" and a "pure heart". "Pure heart" in our our school also means 
"originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions".

For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every 
"form", or "illusion", is a required condition, which is why we need 
"pana/wisdom" as well as maintaining a "clear mind without judgment" in 
addition to "pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic 

These are the basis often for me to say "ALL". All includes the life 
force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, 
relative and impermanent forms.

Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a 
incomplete practice.


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can

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