Makya,

My comments are embedded below like this [Bill!]:

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 8:59 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

  
Bill; Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the 
forms are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't 
talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. 
These are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms 
around them when you ‘think’ or ‘create the concepts of’ peach, hands, lips, 
pleasant, etc…

Mayka: Not to mention the word: "experience" didn't exclude the experience.  
The talk of the form was made in that way to point it out that in the 
experience of "just this" the form also takes part.  It's a motion in that 
motion is the experience.  One is not separated from the motion.
[Bill!] One is separated from the experience as soon as you open your mouth!

Mayka: One is one with the now as endless motion travelling in the now and with 
everything that is happening.  Of course there is a direct experience with all 
that happening at once.   If you didn't have the peach you wouldn't have the 
experience of just this while eating the peach.  Not sure if I'm explaining 
well this.  Of course,  you can argue now; "If I didn't have the peach still I 
could have the experience of just this".  But in order to have that wouldn't be 
need of something else? And if so still this "just this" will be happening 
because of that "just that".
[Bill!]  There is only one experience, and it is Now and it is Just THIS!  The 
peach and pleasant are forms, illusions, that you create to try to 'understand' 
or communicate the experience.  The forms are illusory and impermanent.  Just 
THIS! is real and eternal. 
 
Bill: Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!
Mayka: Emptiness of a separate self.
[Bill!] The moment you opened your mouth (or typed these words) you have missed 
the mark!

...Bill!
 
--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 10:49
  
Mayka,

You can't intrude on a discussion on this forum. All discussions are meant to 
be for all.

Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the forms 
are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't talk 
about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. These 
are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms around them 
when you ‘think’ or ‘create the concepts of’ peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc…

When there is Just THIS there is no peach, hands, eyes, lips or pleasant. There 
is Just THIS! which might be the raw experience of sight, smell, feel and/or 
taste.

The Prajnaparamita Sutra may indeed state that ‘Form is Emptiness and Emptiness 
in Form’, but you have not demonstrated that to me. You’ve only talked about 
Form. Anyone can talk about Forms.

Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:02 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

JMJM and Bill:

Sorry to intrude between your both interesting conversation but I'd like to 
contribute to it too: 

The way I experience "Just This" is that the form and the non form interbeing 
with each other. I would disagree with Bill here saying that excludes de form. 
The form takes part of the experience of "Just This". "Just This is in 
continuous motion. It's the now travelling in the now.

eg; I have a big nice peach in my two hands. 
Peach=Form
Hands=Form
I look at it (I use my eyes to look at it. Eyes=Form). 
I bring the peach to my lips (movement=Form, Lips=Form)
Hmmm...what a pleasant smell (smell=form, thought=Form)
....and etc.

What it happens with just this is that there is no attachment to the motion and 
all sensations, thoughts, images etc etc.

Another example will be the clap of a hand. Sound=Form
Hand=Form

The form and the non form are not separated from each other. They're one. The 
form is in the non form and the non form is in the form. Even the 
Prajnaparamita Sutra can confirm this: "...Emptiness is form, form is 
emptiness...."

Mayka

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 4:10

JMJM,

I think what you expressed in the attached email is essentially correct. I do 
use 'Just THIS!' to express emptiness, and the absence of forms.

I have always assumed that when I use the term ‘illusions’ or 
‘concepts’ it is the same as your use of the word ‘form’.

I don’t reject or completely ignore forms, in fact I use them all the time. 
I’m using them right now. I’ve always said that my zen practice involves 
learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the 
knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance.

'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. 
However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' or emptiness when using a 
text-based media like this involves the use of forms - like words I type of 
'Just THIS!'. Saying 'Just THIS!' is a little different in that it only 
involves creating a sound, and you only experience a sound. That's all there is 
to that. If you (or I) go on to create a concept or a definition or try to 
'understand' the sound 'Just THIS!', then we are creating a concept to explain 
the sound - which is the same as saying we create a form to superimpose on 
emptiness. Sometimes this seems necessary and I do that all the time. So do we 
all.

Does this seem to correspond more closely with Chan teachings?

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:56 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Perhaps

Hi Bill,

You stated that Shigantaza is "just this". If "just this" is indeed 
Shigantaza, as you stated, now I would understand finally why you 
channel most postings to "just this" as the singular truth and others as 
"illusory".

For us to communicate better, I like to clarify some of the terms that 
we use. I believe that your "illusory" is equate to my "form". If so, 
then "just this", or "clear mind", is not "as is", as per our previous 
discussion.

"As is" in my posts includes everything. It includes all the "forms", 
as well as "clear mind" and a "heart with harmonious intentions". In 
other words, "as is" includes both "illusions" and "clear mind" of 
yours, plus "pure heart without other impulses".

You are separating "Just this" from all "illusions", which is not wrong, 
while we teach to accept all "forms" as well as maintaining a "clear 
mind" and a "pure heart". "Pure heart" in our our school also means 
"originally embedded with compassion or harmonious intentions".

For us to live an enlightened life, accept/fulfill/consummate every 
"form", or "illusion", is a required condition, which is why we need 
"pana/wisdom" as well as maintaining a "clear mind without judgment" in 
addition to "pure heart without various impulses, or without karmic 
influence".

These are the basis often for me to say "ALL". All includes the life 
force and wisdom of the universal essence as well as all the transient, 
relative and impermanent forms.

Then we are whole and complete. Otherwise, we are still practicing a 
incomplete practice.

JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

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