Mayka,

Here is  a link to one of the most well known collection of koans THE GATELESS 
GATE:

       http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan-index.pl 

There’s absolutely no problem with just reading and enjoying these.  You don’t 
have to ‘work on them’ and in fact shouldn’t try if you’re not working with a 
competent zen teacher.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 6:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

  
Bill:
 
Can you provide with some reliable links and so that I could have a look into 
it?. Thanks. Mayka
 
PS; I have to tell you though that the koans thing is one of those things that 
doesn't bring much interest in me.  The way of mindfulness teaching is straight 
forward to awareness, of much greater simplicity and effective if put into 
practice.  However, having some education background about what the great 
Master say will be helpful while communicating in forums.
 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 10:37
  
Mayka,

You have correctly identified that true 'zen talk' is of necessity very, very 
simple. Very childlike. Empty. 

On the other hand most 'talk about zen' is very complex, full of concepts and 
forms.

If you want examples of this just read a few koans to see what the historical 
zen masters had to say when asked something about Buddha or Buddha Mind.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 5:02 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

Bill:
This is what I was trying to explain but with a failed result through the 
explanation of eating a peach. You paid attention to the form as something 
isolated from the experience. The word experience was not mentioned as it was 
taken for granted to be understood through the motion action of eating a peach. 
However, you got me at the end with your koan of emptiness...hahaha...!. I did 
enjoy very much that interaction we got, though. It felts as two buddhas 
talking to each other. And the words used a childlike game of marbles. 
Mayka

--- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 9:38

Ed,

MATTER is not different than EMPTINESS. Yes.

In my post below I specifically said the CONCEPTS of [fill in the blank –
could be a concept of matter, like a peach] are FORMS.

…Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.coma> [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Perhaps

Hi Bill,
Bill said:
> What you didn't talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling,
feeling and tasting. These are not forms. They are experience. They are
empty. 
> You place forms around them when you 'think or create the concepts of
peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc.

Hi Bill,
As per the excerpt from the Prajnaparamita Sutra below, *both* form and
sensations/experiences are empty. 
--ED
------
The Prajnaparamita Sutra states: 
"2. Explaining the essence of the Prajna-paramita practice 
2-1. The relationship between physical dharmas and emptiness
Sariputra, matter is not different from emptiness, and 
Emptiness is not different from matter. 

Matter is emptiness and emptiness is matter.
2-2. The relationship between mental dharmas and emptiness 
So too are sensation, recognition, volition and consciousness."
------

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the
forms are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms.
> What you didn't talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling,
feeling and tasting. These are not forms. They are experience. They are
empty. 
> You place forms around them when you 'think or create the concepts of
peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc.
> 
> When there is Just THIS there is no peach, hands, eyes, lips or pleasant.
There is Just THIS! which might be the raw experience of sight, smell, feel
and/or taste.
> 
> The Prajnaparamita Sutra may indeed state that 'Form is Emptiness and
Emptiness in Form', but you have not demonstrated that to me. You've only
talked about Form. Anyone can talk about Forms.
> 
> Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!
> 
> ...Bill!


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