Bill, Anthony, Kristy and All,

Tony wrote: " zen is a subdivision of Buddhism is wrong."

Tony, the statements in the NOTES below appear to contradict your
statement.

I was not aware of the distinction between zen and Zen (Zen Buddhism)
until this distinction was pointed out to me by Bill in April of this
year. Until that time I was under the impression that Zen (or zen) stood
for Zen Buddhism.

Examining the NOTES below, one may conclude that zen as a secular
practice is an unknown entity to the public at large.

Bill, from whom did you first learn of the existence of two separate
entities, 'zen' and 'Zen' (Zen Buddhism)?

Are the centres established by Maezumi, Shunryu Suzuki, Joshu Sazaki and
other Japanese Teachers 'zen' centers or 'Zen Buddhist' centers?

--ED



NOTE1:

>From Merriam Webster online:
Zen   : a Japanese <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zen#> 
sect of Mahayana Buddhism that aims at enlightenment by direct intuition
through meditation




NOTE2:


Definitions of zen on the Web:
    * school of Mahayana Buddhism asserting that enlightenment can come
through meditation and intuition rather than faith; China and Japan    
* a Buddhist doctrine that enlightenment can be attained through direct
intuitive insight     * wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\
3Fs%3Dzen&sa=X&ei=LN_4TKabD4acsQP8qpSKAw&ved=0CBoQpAMoAA&usg=AFQjCNFXNwx\
L1vqm8uYnFloEcAr2MXbQbA>

    * Zen is a school of Mah¨¡y¨¡na Buddhism, translated from the
Chinese word ìø Ch¨¢n to Japanese. This word is in turn derived
from the Sanskrit dhy¨¡na, which means "meditation" (see Etymology
below).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen&sa=X&ei=LN\
_4TKabD4acsQP8qpSKAw&ved=0CBsQpAMoAQ&usg=AFQjCNHmj2VX8Ck-A9kLeqpaEi7sdIi\
qZA>





    * A denomination of Buddhism elaborated in Japan; A philosophy of
calm reminiscent of that of the Buddhist denomination
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zen
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zen&sa=X&ei=L\
N_4TKabD4acsQP8qpSKAw&ved=0CCUQpAMoCw&usg=AFQjCNG8SG4VJYDYpowKozQbd4wm1e\
zaHA>

    * (Japanese; Korean: Son; Chinese: Ch'an; Sanskrit: Dhyana):
meditation practice.
www.kwanumzen.com/misc/glossary.html
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.kwanumzen.com/misc/glossary.html\
&sa=X&ei=LN_4TKabD4acsQP8qpSKAw&ved=0CCYQpAMoDA&usg=AFQjCNFHw7Fg2_3OKrnG\
DIHmLSWK1bP1dA>





NOTE3:
Definitions of Zen Buddhism on the Web:
    * Zen: school of Mahayana Buddhism asserting that enlightenment can
come through meditation and intuition rather than faith; China and Japan
* Zen: a Buddhist doctrine that enlightenment can be attained through
direct intuitive insight
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\
3Fs%3Dzen+buddhism&sa=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAYQpAMoAA&usg=AF\
QjCNFELf21drm07DLSKw6xDcD9kwUgIA>

    * Zen is a school of Mah¨¡y¨¡na Buddhism, translated from the
Chinese word ìø Ch¨¢n to Japanese. This word is in turn derived
from the Sanskrit dhy¨¡na, which means "meditation" (see Etymology
below).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_buddhism
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_buddhism&s\
a=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAcQpAMoAQ&usg=AFQjCNE_xRow5tJ403oyb5\
2bRnMO3mdxwQ>

    * The Zen denomination of Buddhism
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zen_Buddhism
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zen_Buddhism&\
sa=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAgQpAMoAg&usg=AFQjCNHlYhSx7AJ04CxOL\
-oGs7w_PqI5NA>

    * an outgrowth of Mahayana, the ¡°meditation¡± sect, developed
in Japan from its earlier Chinese counterpart and divided into two
branches: Binzai, an austere and aristocratie monasticism emphasizing
meditation on paradoxes; and S¨­t¨­, a benevolent monasticism with
great popular following ...
www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-2505200070.html
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-2505200\
070.html&sa=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAkQpAMoAw&usg=AFQjCNF2hDk7\
8nrlrxAAig0a-wkE1NFkOw>

    * A blending of Buddhism from India with Taoism from China. It is
predominately practiced in China and Japan.
regentsprep.org/Regents/global/vocab/topic_alpha.cfm
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://regentsprep.org/Regents/global/vocab\
/topic_alpha.cfm%3Ftopic%3Dz&sa=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAoQpAM\
oBA&usg=AFQjCNFpCjS6ZUsPgQDx9eahpC_GsBVoMw>

    * (Japanese, zen: "meditation"): Japanese Buddhism which is
differentiated from other Buddhist sects by its strong emphasis on the
concept that all things are one.
13thdruidofavalon.tripod.com/druidplanet/id88.html
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://13thdruidofavalon.tripod.com/druidpl\
anet/id88.html&sa=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAsQpAMoBQ&usg=AFQjCN\
EoOWXcMoody_a7K2XsleFf3NLrsg>

    * (Japanese from Chinese "ch'an" from Sanskrit "dhyana":
"meditation")
www.shambhala.org.uk/glossary.php
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.shambhala.org.uk/glossary.php&sa\
=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CAwQpAMoBg&usg=AFQjCNHWIDmxjF8f1TBT7yw\
DgvuAZHUkMA>

    * A form of Mahayana Buddhism; originating in China where it is
called Chan; practiced mainly in Japan, but becoming increasingly
popular in the West. Zen emphasizes a close relationship between a
master and his disciples. ...
sg.omf.org/omf/buddhism/about_buddhism/glossary
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http://sg.omf.org/omf/buddhism/about_buddhi\
sm/glossary&sa=X&ei=1-D4TOCJG4nEsAO5xaTPAg&ved=0CA0QpAMoBw&usg=AFQjCNEKe\
7tzKQfq-8T2pGsPVDhXX4jxCw>



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wu...@...> wrote:
>
> ED/Kristy,
>
> On behalf of Bill, I solemnly declare the subtitle that zen is a
subdivision of Buddhism is wrong. It creates illusions that are
associated with Buddhism.
>
> Anthony



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