ED,

You asked: "Do you agree that this state of 'shikantaza' or 'samadhi' first
occurs prior to the kensho-satori stage?"

I answered that a couple days ago but I'll give it another try by giving you
my PERSONAL definition or 'how I use' these terms:

Shikantaza - a Japanese term for 'just sit'.  I sometimes describe it as
'clear mind' or 'no-mind'.  It is the state where the illusory concept of
self and the discriminating (rational) mind dissolves and you are directly
aware of reality without the pre-processing of the discriminating mind.
(Pre-processing which takes place between the experience and awareness).  I
really don't distinguish shikantaza from kensho or satori or Buddha
Nature/Mind/Heart.
 
Samadhi - I don't usually use this term but consider it the same state as
the Japanese term 'shikantaza'.

Satori - a Japanese term for 'enlightenment', or 'pure awareness' as
described in the paragraph describing shikantaza, or 'awareness of Buddha
Nature'.  I consider 'satori' and 'shikantaza' as the same thing.  It is
persistent and can co-exist with a 'normal' state where the concept of
'self' is functional, although always recognized as illusory.  

Kensho - the first occurrence of satori, usually a just a small, fleeting
glimpse, may last only seconds or minutes or as much as a few hours.  It
reverts to only a memory of satori.

I don't really like to put all these into some kind of chronology, but since
you asked I'll try:

1. shikantaza WITHOUT awareness
2. kensho (or shikantaza WITH awareness) for a brief period, but separate
from 'normal', illusory self state. 
3. satori (or shikantaza WITH awareness) for longer and more persistent
periods, and co-existent with functional illusory self state.

Bill!  (now in Seoul)

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:11 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen and the Martial Arts

  

Bill,
Do you agree that this state of 'shikantaza' or 'samadhi' first occurs prior
to the kensho-satori stage?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> I normally don't use the term 'samadhi', but in the post below I meant
> 'shikantaza' - the state where there is a dissolution of self.
> 
> ...Bill!
 
> Bill, 'Samadhi' has several meanings; in which sense do you use use
> 'samadhi'?  --ED
 
  
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, BillSmart@ wrote:
> >
> > This is Beijing Bill.
> > 
> > While in samadhi there are no events. 
> There is only now. An event is a description of a slice of time that has a
> beginning and ending. You MIGHT say you focus on now, but focus is not
quite
> the right word. At least for me focus denotes an effort or intent. There
is
> 'just now' without focus. You might have to focus to get to that point,
but
> when you get to that point focus and self and events all dissolve away.
> > 
> > ...Bill!

 
> > ED,
> > 
> > You say, "focuses it like a laser beam on any and all events or a chosen
> subset of events in the here and now, to achieve specified objectives."
> > 
> > In my understanding, zen's mindfulness does not focus on any 'events'. I
> would like to hear from Bill about this.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > The essence of the contribution of Zen to the martial arts is to be
found
> > in:
> > 7. Right Concentration
> > 8. Right Mindfulness.
> > Concentration and Mindfulness are secular activities, and yes, the
> Concentration is a pre-requisite for the development of Mindfulnes; that
is,
> in the moment the mind takes the already-developed Concentration and
focuses
> it like a laser beam on any and all events or a chosen subset of events in
> the here and now, to achieve specified objectives. This capability is
> especially effective in the martial arts and in business strategizing.
> > --ED



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