Anthony, If you're sitting and you're thinking about your old girlfriend you mind is not clear. If you're sitting and thinking about your new girlfriend, then your mind is clear...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > Not so. The Chinese character for 'sit' just means 'sit'. When you sit, you > can have clear mind, but you can also think about your old time girl friend. >  > Anthony > > --- On Tue, 12/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > To: [email protected] > Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 9:05 AM > > >  > > > > To Anthony and Siska, > > What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for > 'sit' is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply > is that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just > sit'. It means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc... > > What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'? > > ...Bill! > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Anthony, > > > > I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered > > so far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal > > meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in > > its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', > > while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who > > learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what > > shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese > > characters. There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind > > anyway. > > > > Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail > > in describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer > > practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on > > (which might be a good idea afterall). > > > > Have a good evening, > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > > > Siska, > > à> > I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid > > being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an > > additional sense of 'clear mind'. It is more so when you show the Chinese > > characters to those who know them(as real Chinese, not adapted by > > Japanese), However, my efforts are misunderstood as being malignant. So I > > had better stop. > > > > In reality, I am in full agreement with 'sitting directed to no object, and > > attached to no content.' > > à> > Anthony > > --- On Mon, 11/4/11, siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> wrote: > > > > > > From: siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 7:47 PM > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > Hi Anthony, Bill, > > > > If I may step in, > > > > I understand Anthony's point because I happen to understand the chinese > > characters of shikantaza, which if I'm not mistaken, spelled zhi guan da > > zuo, which literally means only sitting, as meditation kind of sitting. But > > when sitting as referred to in this term, a lot of things can happen in the > > mind. > > > > The way I understand it, Bill might refer to literally only 'sitting' and > > nothing else, which can only happen when the mind is clear. Perhaps in > > chinese, it will have to reduce to literally 'only (zhi) and sit (zuo). But > > I suppose the japanese term would no longer be shikantaza. > > > > In this case, I do think the term shikantaza as rather limiting. How do you > > call a state of clear mind just as in zazen, when it happens while you are > > not in sitting position? :-) > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:54:39 +0800 (SGT) > > To: <[email protected]> > > ReplyTo: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > > > à> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > à> > You say, 'I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else.' > > à> > It is 100% correct. If you 'just sit', you can do day dreaming, or think > > about your girl friend. àThere is no definite connection between > > shikantaza and clear mind. > > à> > Google quotes some Japanese sources that have shikantaza imply clear mind. > > I thought about that, and concluded that the word is foreign to Japanese, > > so they unwittingly added additional meanings to it. However, the original > > Chinese word means only 'just sit' and nothing else. It is colloquial. When > > you ask a 10 year old Chinese boy to do shikantaza, he will immediately sit > > cross-legged in front of you. You cannot see his mind anyway. > > à> > The better way is to say 'shikantaza with clear mind'. > > à> > Anthony > > > > --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 8:31 AM > > > > > > à> > > > Anthony, > > > > I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else. How could > > there be some kind of shikantaza that WASN'T 'clear mind'? If your mind was > > not clear, if you were thinking about something, it wouldn't be shikantaza. > > > > That is the way I use this word 'shikantaza' anyway. If you could suggest a > > better word please do... > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > Ãâà> > > Correction: > > > Ãâà> > > Anything else like counting or following the breath or koans are only > > > teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza with clear mind. > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:05 AM > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > In my opinion shikantaza is zazen. Anything else like counting or > > > following the breath or koans are only teaching techniques to get you to > > > shikantaza. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > The list, author unknown is to be found in the source below. > > > > > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation> > > > > > > > > Shikantaza is an awareness practice, whereas zazen involves both > > > > concentration meditation (breath-counting for instance) and shikantaza, > > > > in varying extents. > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > > > Under the ZEN BUDDHIST MEDITATION PRACTICES what do you think whomever > > > > made up this list (you?) thinks is the difference between 'zazen' and > > > > 'shikantaza'? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" seacrofter001@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
