ED, I forgot to mention the 4 hours needed to attain to the jhanas while on retreat etc. Yes, the conditions required for the the attainmet of the first jhana is not very long, but I think that was a bit disengenous of Jeffrey because most people would need a substantial piece of time to realise this. 4 hours of meditation just concentrating on the small area just below the nose could very well create the right condition for this. I know, it worked for me!
Mike ________________________________ From: mike brown <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 14 April, 2011 23:33:59 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Yahoo Jhana Support Group ED, I guess it's too early in my experince of the jhanas to make any definitive statements, but I do agree and disagree with some of the statements below. I think Jeffrey is correct that concentration and samadhi/jhana are not exactly the same thing. I've found in my own experience that I begin with an object of concentration - usually on the breath - and then that practice eventually leads to a state where my breathing becomes very shallow, in fact, too subtle to follow. At this stage there is still some (very faint) discursive thought going on, usually in the shape of a commentary on what is happening. Only then does the power of the jhana impact (for me, a loud rush of energy into the head accompanied by ringing in the ears and the body vibrating like a struck gong and an overwhelming feeling of bliss and liberation). So in this sense, I would agree that concentration is a vehicle to take you to the gate where the first jhana takes over. I completely disagree with everything after that. It is my understanding that the jhanas are a part of the samathayana (vehicle of serenity), which is separate, but not mutually exclusive of, vipassanayana (vehicle of insight). According to the pali canon, the jhanas are useful for strengthening the concentration and calmness needed for insight meditation, but not essential. Vipassana, or insight into ultimate reality, is essential for Enlightenment. To work on vipassana, only concentration and mindfulness are required (although the attainment of jhanas makes this work alot smoother and possibly deeper). Therefore, I think Jeffrey's assertions that jhanas are indispensable for Enlightenment, and are the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, are IMO incorrect. Mike ________________________________ From: ED <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 14 April, 2011 22:56:26 Subject: [Zen] Re: Yahoo Jhana Support Group Mike, I would appreciate hearing your views on Jeffrey's assertions below, based on your personal experiences. Thanks, ED Hello Luis, and welcome to the JSG. We have spent the last 40 years examining how the terms samadhi and jhana are understood by Buddhism. When we find that the terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana' are generally interpreted as 'concentration' by priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion; Whereas, if one were to study the Discourses of the Buddha in its original Pali language, and read the Christian mystics, such as: Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, then we can see that 'contemplation' is the correct translation of the terms 'samadhi' and 'jhana;' we thus must begin to question how well these priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion understand their own religion well enough to teach it. Then, we also commonly find priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion claim that samadhi and jhana are optional; whereas, the Buddha defined them as the 8th fold of his Noble Eightfold Path. This means these priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion must be unworthy to teach Buddhist philosophy and religion, because they are only teaching a 7-fold path, not an 8 fold path. Then, we find some priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion claim that one must remain in meditation for 4 hour intervals while on retreat to experience jhana. We can only conclude that such priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion also clearly do not know what samadhi and jhana are. With the above problems in the interpretation of Buddhist philosophy and religion we have to conclude that very few priests, translators and teachers of Buddhist philosophy and religion understand it sufficiently to teach it. In nearly 40 years of daily meditation practice I have found that samadhi and jhana can be achieved by anyone simply by maintaining a daily meditation practie that is sensitive to the phenomena of contemplation, which is the same as samadhi and jhana. These phenomena include: Bliss (piiti), joy (sukha), tranquility (passaddhi), equanimity (upekkha), energy (viriya), and freedom from suffering (adhukkha). Best regards, Jeffrey http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/message/18286
