Hi Siska, I too love the Mulapariyaya Sutta! But I have forgotten the Bahiya Sutta. I will look it up on your recommendation. I think its in the Middle Length Collection, Majjhima Nikaya?
I have practiced under both Burmese and more indirectly with some of the Thai forest traditions, and as you say many of the Burmese traditions appear to be hostile to Jhana. But this is only because the Burmese are very tight with sharing information and do not talk much about "higher training" until you get there. Most of them do teach jhana to students who have had the magga-phala experience and have come to stabilize it. Some even like Pa Auk offer it from the beginning. I am inclined to think myself that jhana is not very useful until first path. After that the student will find samadhi easier, because the mind is purer, and he or she will not become distracted, or deluded by the more extraordinary aspect of this process. What I discovered from my time with Taungpulu is that given time, jhana naturally emerges from the practice of bare insight. Once the student is sitting in sankhar-upekkha-nana, knowledge of equanimity towards formations (pinnacle of the process of insight meditation) the jhanas will by and by emerge spontaneously, as will indeed whatever, state, experience or development that one needs. In S.U.N. one is as it were possessed by power and wisdom that is from beyond the mind, so all is provided. In time, all the holy paths, absorptions and even psychic powers are said to emerge. I can confirm this to a more limited extent. Contrary to what the Theravada claims, there are secret teachings, mostly in the form of oral traditions that are not shared except on a need to know basis. I have practiced jhana as well with some success, but I find that when it is practiced jhana as a "thing in itself" rather than emerging spontaneously from knowledge of equanimity towards formations, it does not have the freshness, purity and aliveness that they have when they spontaneously arise. They are not lit with pañña/prajña, and have less energy that they do when they arise from pure mindfulness. As to clear comprehension, one can say that is of two kinds. There is a kind of clear comprehension that belongs to the intellect, that is part of preliminary or unverified right view. It is also involved in what the Buddha calls "wise reflection." So the four categories of this clear comprehension are: clear comprehension of purpose, clear comprehension of suitability, clear comprehension of the Dharma, and clear comprehension of the meditation subject. Clear comprehension of purpose is "What am I doing? What is my purpose? Why am I doing what I am doing and what is my aim?" So when people ask me to teach them to meditate, the very first thing I ask them is "why do you want to meditate?" It is quite amazing that most people cannot answer this question clearly or easily. They are befuddled in their purposes. The second one, clear comprehension of suitability answer the following question "Is this thought, word or deed helpful in supporting my purpose? Is it helpful to others in some way? Does it fulfill wholesome states? etc." These two together constitute wise reflection, yonisu-manasikhara. The last two: clear comprehension of the Dharma and clear comprehension of the meditation subject constitute mundane unverified right understanding. Clear comprehension as it manifests in actual practice is the quality of the mind, which having come face to face with its present experience, does so without befuddlement or delusion, and clearly sees and understands its present reality in that moment - knowledge and vision, as the Pali suttas say. For example, vision is the seeing of impermanence in any given moment, but knowledge is the full understanding that this actually is impermanence. One does not look stupidly, or dully at one's experience, eh? In the experience of having a particular insight, the mental factors of inquiry (vicara) and wisdom (pañña) are in the lead, but all the necessary wholesome mental factors are also there in their supporting roles. Sometimes fire allows us to see what is, we use its light. Sometime the fire of mindfulness burns through defilement that bind bringing purity and freedom; sometimes it absorbs us in its beauty (jhana). Siska, it sounds like your study and practice span both Theravada and Zen traditions. Have you found that they help each other or do they hinder each other? Have I misunderstood? What is the nature of your practice? Daniel --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hello Daniel, > > Glad to see your posts in this forum, which give totally different 'flavour' > and style from the rest. > > Some of the suttas you quoted below were my favourites. These suttas provide > guidance to our practice. When it comes to awareness that is referred to as > buddha nature here in this forum, I think Bahiya Sutta and Mulapariyaya Sutta > have more similar descriptions. > > If I don't mis-understand from your few posts, you practised under Burmese > tradition. From what I know, this tradition does not emphasise jhana, if not > looking at it more as a hindrance. But you seem to understand it at > experience level. Would you mind telling more about your practice? > > I'm also interested to know more about sampajanna (clear understanding), > which I suppose would not have anything to do with thinking or perceiving the > experience one has in moment of mindfulness (sati)? When one experiences > insight (nyana), what is the mental factor, if any, at that moment? > > I apologise to all other forum members if this deviates too far from zen. I > am too curious today. Let me know if this is not acceptable in this forum. > > siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "empty0grace" <empty0grace@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:13:39 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: [Zen] Response to Ed > > > Hi Ed, > > > > You asked me to post something about the essential Theravada teaching. > Let me say that I don't consider myself quite able to do this in a > full, succinct or balanced way, but here at least is an effort I made. > For the record, I am not especially interested in persuading anyone. I > do this because you asked me to, and because there is no one else here > to speak for the Theravada. > > > > In the Pali canon, the Buddha refers to his teaching as the sadhamma, or > the good law, often simple the Dhamma for short, or Dharma in Sanskrit. > He also clearly states that the measure of any teaching that can be > considered to be from him, and authentic, would be the presence of the > Four Noble Truths at the core of that teaching. These are, as I am sure > you know: > > * The Noble Truth of Suffering > * The Noble Truth of the cause of suffering > * The Noble Truth of the End of Suffering > * The Noble Truth of the Eightfold path that leads to the end of > suffering > > He himself would often state: "Four things, and four things only do > I teach: suffering, its cause, its ending and the way." > > > > The eightfold path, as I am sure you already know is: Right > understanding, right intentions, right speech, right conduct, right > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. > Traditionally these can be divided into three groups: Sila, samadhi and > pañña or virtue, concentration and wisdom. The proper cultivation of > this path leads the destruction of the three unwholesome roots that are > the cause of suffering: greed, hatred and delusion. This is what > Theravada, or the Way of the Elders is about, no more and less. > > > > I would say that in contrast to Japanese Zen, which seems to have a > strongly anti-intellectual style to it, the Buddha's teaching as > recorded in the Pali Canon, and practicse in the Way of the Elders, > emphasizes having a clear understanding of the teaching as being an > essential part of the guidance process. This would be called mundane or > unverified right understanding. This includes all of the basics of the > teaching: the five aggregates, the three signs of being (anicca, anatta > and dukkha), the six sense spheres with their six objects, the reality > of the Unconditioned, and co-dependent origination etc. Each limb of the > eightfold path is to be understood, so they too are included in right > understanding. With time mundane unverified right-understanding become > mundane verified right-understanding as insight (vipassana) and > understanding (pañña) are developed. Eventually, when the > Unconditione is realized, mundane right-understanding become, lokutara > or supermundane right-understanding of the Deathless, Nibbana. > > > > The Buddha also describes, in the Pali cannon, another way of talking > about right understanding as the four aspects of clear comprehension: > clear comprehension of the Dhamma, clear comprehension of purpose, clear > comprehension of suitability, and clear comprehension of the meditation > subject. Clear comprehension is something greatly emphasized by the > Buddha in this body of teaching, so much so that he often conjoined it > into one word with mindfulness: sati-sampajanna. Sati-sampajanna is > translated as mindfulness and clear comprehension. Right mindfulness > according to this body of teaching is not just awareness of the object, > but awareness accompanied by clear comprehension. > > > > The Buddha's teachings on mindfulness are often repeated in the Pali > suttas, but the two most comprehensive suttas on this subject are the > Satipatthana Sutta, and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Both of these are > easily locatable on the web if anyone wishes to read them. Also in this > category is the Kayagasati Sutta, Discourse on Mindfulness of the Body > â" "Without mindfulness of the body, I say O Bhikkhus, there is > no enlightenment." and the Anapanasati sutta, or Discourse on > Mindfulness of Breathing, which is one form of mindfulness of the body, > a summary of which is at the beginning of the Satiptthana and > Mahasatipatthana sutta. An important part of the basic teaching is also > the recognition and ability to work with the five jhana factors, the > five controlling faculties and the seven factors of enlightenment. > > > > As to samma-samadhi, or right concentration, the Buddha defined this as > the cultivation of the four jhanas. He gives two standard descriptions > of these. One is by means of mental factors present, and the other is by > means of poetic metaphor. > > > > On the subject of effort and energy, the Buddha defined right effort as > the "four great efforts: "The effort to diminish those > unwholesome states presently arisen; to keep from arising those > unwholesome states not arisen; to cause to arise those wholesome states > not yet arisen, and to strengthen and increase those wholesome states > now arisen." I personally love this one very much because of how > open and inclusive it is. > > > > Maybe I should let the Buddha speak for himself. Here are a few quotes > that I garnered from some of the chapters in my book: > > _________ > > > > 4. "Breathing in long, he understands `I breath in long' or > breathing out long, he understands `I breathe out long...' > > 6. "Again, bhikkhus, when walking, a bhikkhu understands; `I am > walking'; when standing, he understands; `I am standing'; > when sitting, he understands: `I am sitting'' when lying down, > he understands: `I am lying down'⦠> > 32. "And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating feelings as > feelings? Here when feeling a pleasant feeling, a bhikkhu understands; > "I feel a pleasant feeling' when feeling a painful feeling he > understands: `I feel a painful feeling.' > > 36. "Here, there being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: > `There is sensual desire in me'⦠> > 42. "Here, there being the enlightenment factor of mindfulness in > him, he understand: "there is the enlightenment factor of > mindfulness in meâ¦" > > 44. "And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind objects as mind > objects in terms of the Four Noble Truths? Here a bhikkhu understands as > it actually is: `this is suffering'; he understands as it > actually is: `this is the origin of suffering; he understands as it > actually is: `this is the cessation of sufferingâ¦'; he > understands as it actually is: `this is the path that leads to the > end of suffering." > > Satipathana Sutta Majjhima Nikaya 10 > > > > ____________ > > > > "With insight let him see, each presently arisen state. > > Let him know that and be sure of it, invincibly, unshakably." MN > 131:3 > > > > ____________ > > > > " Dependent on the eye and form, eye-consciousness arises; the > meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there is > feeling; with feeling as condition there is craving. Dependent on the > ear and sounds, ear- consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is > contact; with contact as condition there is feeling; with feeling as > condition there is craving. Dependent on the nose and odors, nose- > consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with > conÂtact as condition there is feeling; with feeling as condition > there is craving. Dependent on the tongue and flavors, > tongue-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with > contact as condition there is feeling; with feeling as condition there > is craving. Dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness > arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition > there is feeling; with feeling as condition there is craving. Dependent > on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of > three is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling; with > feeling as condition there is craving. ...." > > Chachaka Sutta: Six Sets of Six; MN 148:8 > > > > ______________ > > > > "...Now this had been said by the Blessed One: `One who sees > dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one whose sees the Dhamma sees > dependent origination...' > > Mahahatthipdopama Sutta: The Greater Discourse on the Elephant's > Footprint; MN 28:28; > > ______________ > > > > "Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is material form permanent or > impermanent?" - "ImpermaÂnent, venerable sir." - "Is > what is impermanent suffering or happiness?" - "Suffering, > venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, and > subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: "This is mine, this I > am, this is my self?" - "No, venerable sir." > > "Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is feeling...Is perception...Are > mental formations.... Is consciousÂness permanent or > impermanent?" - "Impermanent, venerable sir." - "Is what > is impermanent sufÂfering or happiness?" - "Suffering, > venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, and > subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: "This is mine, this I > am, this is my self?" - "No, venerÂable sir." > > Alagadduupama Sutta: The Simile of the Snake; MN 22:26-29; pp.232-233 > > _____________ > > > > This one is very famous. It is called the fire sermon. > > > > "Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what, bhikkhus, is the all that is > burning? The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is > burning, eye-contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with > eye-contact as condition â" whether pleasant or painful or > neither-painful â"nor-pleasant â" that too is burning. Burning > with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with > the fire of delusion; burning with birth, ageing, and death, with > sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say. > > "The ear is burning ... The nose is burning ... the tongue is > burning ... the body is burning ... The mind is burning ... and whatever > feeling arises with mind-contact as condition â" whether pleasant or > painful or neither-painful nor â"pleasant that too is burning. > Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of > hatred, with the fire of delusion; burning with ageing and death, with > sorrow, lamentation. pain, displeasure, and despair, I say." > Samyutta Nikaya 35.28 > > ____________ > > > > 10."...Friend Saariputta, it is through seeing cessation, through > directly knowing cessation in the eye, in eye-consciousness, and in > things cognizable through eye-consciousness, that I regard them thus: > `This is not mine, this I am not this is not myself.' It is > through seeing cessation, through directly knowing cessation in the > ear...in the nose...in the tongue...in the body...in the mind, in > mind-consciousness, and in things cognizable through mind-consciousness, > that I regard them thus; `this is not mine, this I am not, this is > not my self.'" > > Channovaada Sutta: Advice to Channa; MN 114: 10; p. 115 > > > > ___________ > > > > 7. "Suppose, Magandiya, there was a leper with sores and blisters on > his limbs, being devoured by worms, scratching the scabs off the > openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a > burning charcoal pit; the more he scratches the scabs and cauterizes his > body, the fouler, more evil smelling and more infected the openings of > his wounds would become, yet he would find a certain measure of > satisfaction and enjoyment in scratching the openings of his wounds. So > too, Magandiya, beings who are not free form lust for sensual pleasures, > who are devoured by craving for sensual pleasures, who burn with fever > for sensual pleasures, still indulge in sensual pleasures; the more such > beings indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their craving for sensual > pleasures increases and the more they are burned by their fever for > sensual pleasure; yet they find a certain measure of satisfaction and > enjoyment in dependence on the five cords of sensual pleaÂsure... > > 21. "...And although this body, Magandiya, is a disease, a tumor, a > dart, a calamity, and an afflicÂtion referring to this body you say: > "This is that health, Master Gotama, this is that Nibbana.' > Magandiya, you do not have that noble vision by means of which you might > know health and see Nibbana." > > Magandiya Sutta MN 75 > > ____________ > > > > "And what bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all through direct > knowledge and full understanding? The eye is to be abandoned through > direct knowledge and full understanding, forms are to be so abandoned, > eye-consciousness is to be so abandoned, eye-contact is to be so > abandoned, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as a > condition-whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant > â" that too is to be abandoned through direct knowledge and full > understanding. > > "The ear is to be abandoned through direct knowledge and full > understanding.... The mind is to be abandoned through direct knowledge > and full understanding; mental phenomena are to be so abandoned; > mind-consciousness is to so abandoned; mind-contact is to be so > abandoned, and whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition > â"whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that > too is to be abandoned through direct knowledge and full > understanding." > > Samyutta Nikaya 35.25 > > _____________ > > > > "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, > mental formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as > impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumor, as a barb, as a > calamity, a an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, and as > not self. He turns his mind away from those states, and directs it > toward the deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is > subÂlime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing > of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, > Nibbana..." > > Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta: The Greater Discourse to Malunkya; MN 64:9 > > _________________ > > > > I will close this with something my teacher Taungpulu Sayadaw used to > say: > > > > Two things must be fully penetrated: mentality and materiality. > > Two things must be fully developed: mindfulness and concentration. > > Two things must be fully abandoned: ignorance and craving. > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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