JMJM, I'll try to explain again, but as you know all this is very hard to put precisely into words.
When I said 'Just THIS!/Buddha Nature is static' I was just trying to reply to you with the same word you used in your question, 'static'. I certainly did not mean it as a 'steady state' which I beleive is more like of a state-of-equilibrium as is referred to in physics. What I meant by using your term 'static' was 'not changing'. I think I also used what I think is a better English term 'eternal'. My experience of Buddha Nature is that it is like an empty vessel. That is what I refer to as Buddha Nature, nothing more. That vessel does not change. It is eternal. It is ubiquitous (exists everywhere). It is One (you and I do not have different vessels - which answers one of your questions below although I still struggle with the wording, yes we are all 'connected' through Buddha Nature). The vessel is what matters to me. I am not concerned with what the vessel contains at any particular moment. I call those contents 'illusions' or could refer to them as 'form'. These contents do change and are in fact continually changing. This changing is what I call 'maya' - or the world of illusion. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <chan.jmjm@...> wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > Just to be clear. In my witness, awareness is like the "gradual" > cultivation/practice. When it peaks, Buddha nature is witnessed, like > "sudden" enlightenment. Therefore every sentient being has the same > Buddha nature, yet the level of awareness is different. However, these > are unrelated to my original question about your Just This. > > If your "Just This" is awareness/Buddha Nature, then one could be able > to be aware of the awareness of others, then these two awareness may be > connected. If so, then all awareness must be all connected, how can any > connection be static? Buddha said, "We realized Same body, Big > compassion."(translated literally). > > On the other hand, if your Just This is a state you experience during > zazen, it may appear to be static, but it is no different than feeling > that our earth is static. However you experience, no mechanism for > experience is static. > > Physicist uses the term steady state instead of static, because all > static states is maintained by dynamic energies. When we split > everything down continuously deeper, everything is maintained by dynamic > energy. There is nothing that is static. > > That's why I asked you to clarify you statement of saying Just This is > Static. Very curious why you say that. > > Thanks, > JM > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > http://www.chan-meditation.com > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > http://www.chanliving.org > Learn to reach enlightenment > http://www.heartchan.org > To save the world > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > On 6/7/2011 1:12 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > JMJM, > > > > Thanks for your explanation. > > > > After reading it I do agree with you that my meaning of 'Buddha > > Nature' or 'Just THIS! does not align with anything you wrote about below. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > I am interested to find out more about your > > > experience/definition/description of "Just This", because you said that > > > it was static. In other words, from this label of yours, I realized > > > that I am not on the same page as yours about the "Just this" that you > > > use so often. > > > > > > Our school does not use these terms as you do. We don't use absolute > > > affirmative terms. We don't insist on anything in our teaching, except > > > Sitting Chan, because we realize all statements are valid, depending on > > > the perspective and context. In other words, All is One. One is ALL. > > > Static is always dynamically supported. Dynamic, when balanced, can be > > > static. But only exist in a particular context and time slot. > > > > > > In other words, all concepts are relative and can be easily > > > misinterpreted. Now back to your question.. In our school... > > > > > > * Awareness is not Buddha Nature > > > > > > Awareness is just our sensitivity to all the forms(effects) and all of > > > its causes(characteristics, underlying energy, etc.). It is our spirit, > > > our soul, our God, our Buddha, or our Allah. > > > > > > Buddha Nature is the nature in all of us, in everything that the > > > universe manifested. It is the instinct, the self nature, the heart of > > > the universe, the heart of us, the essence of everything. It is just a > > > set of characteristics or the laws of nature, if you will. These > > > characteristics are however also very interactive without any clear > > > boundaries and hard to pinpoint. My Teachers has categorized some major > > > ones, but that's difficult to be complete. > > > > > > Based on these description, Buddha nature is always the same regardless > > > of time or space. When we surpass beyond time and space, we are in > > > different dimension. My Teacher said, Buddha is in the 20th dimension. > > > FYI, I have not been there yet. > > > > > > We reach Buddha nature, when there is a white light emitting from our > > > Heart Chakra. Many of our practitioners already witnessed it. Some more > > > frequent than others. During such conditions, wisdom is infinite beyond > > > many life times, past and future. In other words, beyond time and space. > > > > > > Our practice in essence is really for spiritual cultivation. > > > JM > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > To save the world > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/5/2011 11:41 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > JMJM. > > > > > > > > I do answer questions like the ones below often. > > > > > > > > If I answered 'yes' I would be affirming the idea that > > > > the dualistic concepts 'yesterday', 'tomorrow', 'my' and 'yours' are > > > > approriate to apply to Buddha Nature. They are not. > > > > > > > > If I answered 'no' I would be affirming the possibility that Buddha > > > > Nature changes from day to day or from person to person. It doesn't. > > > > > > > > On the forum here I usually answer 'Just THIS! to try to communicate > > > > pure awareness. In person I would probably respond in a different way. > > > > > > > > How about you? How would you answer these questions? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > èæúÃ¥æââ¢Ã§Ã²Ã¾Ã¦ÃÅ"à ½ <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > I am sorry that some of my carelessness in my choice of words > > caused > > > > you > > > > > to go into such length of explaining. Just a few words would do. > > > > > > > > > > Why these questions are not answerable to you? > > > > > - Is Buddha Nature the same today as it was yesterday? > > > > > - And will it be the same tomorrow? > > > > > - Is my Buddha Nature the same as yours? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > To save the world > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/5/2011 8:26 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your continuing discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > When I use the term 'Just THIS!' I am trying to both DESCRIBE and > > > > > > DEMONSTRATE Buddha Nature with a written phrase. I think the > > > > > > description is pretty good, but I know it lacks a lot as a > > > > > > demostration. Part of that is the medium - written words. Spoken > > > > words > > > > > > would be better. Spoken words with intonation, volume accompanied > > > > with > > > > > > gestures would be better - probably the closest I could come. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since for me 'Just THIS!' represents Buddha Nature some of the > > > > > > questions you've asked are just not answerable. For example > > could you > > > > > > answer questions like: > > > > > > - Is Buddha Nature the same today as it was yesterday? And > > will it be > > > > > > the same tommorow? > > > > > > - Is my Buddha Nature the same as yours? > > > > > > > > > > > > So, to respond to (not answer) your latest question below: > > > > > > [JMJM] When you are in "Buddha Nature", are you connected with > > > > "Buddha > > > > > > Nature" in others, or disconnected? > > > > > > > > > > > > - I don't describe the state as being 'in Buddha Nature'. I > > describe > > > > > > this state as 'experiencing Buddha Nature', or 'pure awareness'. > > > > > > - I am not 'connected with Buddha Nature'. There is no 'I' nor is > > > > > > there 'Buddha Nature' - there is just 'pure awareness' which I > > try to > > > > > > describe as 'Just THIS!'. > > > > > > - Also, there is no 'others' there is only 'pure awareness'. I > > guess > > > > > > you could describe it as a 'connection', but a 'connection' > > implies 2 > > > > > > or more things being 'connected'. I'd describe it as an > > 'emersion' or > > > > > > 'absorption' - but each of these words imply a perspective. > > > > 'Emersion' > > > > > > is 'going into' and 'absorption' is 'drawing in'. Maybe a > > better word > > > > > > would be just plain old 'blend' - to combine multiple things > > > > > > (illusions) into one fully-integrated whole (Buddha Nature or > > Just > > > > THIS!). > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > ÃÆ'èÃâæÃâúÃÆ'ÃÂ¥Ãâæâââ¬Å¾Ã¢ÃÆ'çÃâòÃâþÃÆ'æÃâ¹Ã "Ãâ¦Ã½ > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still trying to learn about "Just This". You are saying "Just > > > > this is > > > > > > > Buddha nature". If so... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you are in "Buddha Nature", are you connected with "Buddha > > > > Nature" > > > > > > > in others, or disconnected? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > To save the world > > > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/3/2011 6:37 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My responses are embedded below; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting. If your Just This is static, or distinctive > > > > moments.... > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] Just THIS! is not 'distinctive moment' is is the One > > > > Eternal > > > > > > > > Moment'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * When next moment appears, is that the same Just This or > > > > different? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] There is no 'next' moment. There is only - only Now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Or when this moment is dying and next moment is about to > > > > appear, > > > > > > > > > is there Just This, or not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] Just THIS! is always now. There is no 'next moment'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * How do we transition from one Just This to another Just > > > > This, I > > > > > > > > > mean in a static fashion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] There is no 'next moment', only now - so there is no > > > > > > > > transistion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Does your Just This change? > > > > > > > > [Bill!] 'Just THIS'! is a term I use to describe Buddha > > Nature. > > > > > > > > So...It is not MY Just THIS! (Buddha Nature). It is Just > > THIS! > > > > (Buddha > > > > > > > > Nature). The SUBSTANCE does not change. The FORM may > > appear to > > > > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > To save the world > > > > > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/3/2011 3:31 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just THIS! is static. It never changes. It's always > > Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as this moment is the only moment that exists, and > > > > that has > > > > > > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > existed and that ever will exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâèÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâúÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ¥ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¾ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâçÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâòÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâþÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¹ÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦"ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâý > > > > > > > > chan.jmjm@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike and Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank to the last two posts from Mike, I have an > > > > opportunity now > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > share about the essence of Sitting Chan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Another perspective that we share is that "our > > body" is an > > > > > > > > > > > illusion. Because our body is not "ours", our body is a > > > > > > > > > > > collection of sixty billion cells (not sure of the right > > > > > > number of > > > > > > > > > > > zeros). Each of these cells is a sentient being > > > > contributing to > > > > > > > > > > > our well being. Our wisdom is a collection of all their > > > > wisdom. > > > > > > > > > > > When we sit, we are sitting for them, ferry each > > cell to > > > > Buddha > > > > > > > > > > > land. Be grateful to each of them. We (the > > collective of all > > > > > > > > > > > cell) are well only if every cell is well. Therefore, > > > > sitting is > > > > > > > > > > > not to benefit ourselves, but benefit every sentient > > being > > > > > > inside > > > > > > > > > > > and outside of us. Therefore, Enlightenment is not just > > > > a mental > > > > > > > > > > > state. It need to be a total integration of our > > physical > > > > body as > > > > > > > > > > > well. Buddhist call this crossing the three EONs of > > > > body, mind > > > > > > > > > > > and spirit. > > > > > > > > > > > * Chi is just an ancient Chinese label for energy. > > It is not > > > > > > > > > > > important what it is called. Nor we need to > > understand or > > > > > > > > > > > comprehend it. Because chi, or our life force, is the > > > > same life > > > > > > > > > > > force that manifest everything else in the universe, the > > > > > > pebbles, > > > > > > > > > > > the flowers, the stars and the sun. It is through this > > > > chi, we > > > > > > > > > > > are connected. Without this chi, the universe is not > > alive. > > > > > > > > > > > * What Bill's simplistic term of "just this" is the > > > > essence of > > > > > > > > zen, > > > > > > > > > > > which is not wrong, but IMO it is incomplete. Just this > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > > > static. Like everything else, it is dynamic. It is > > > > alive. It is > > > > > > > > > > > true only in every moment. Like the stars, each > > > > relationship > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > > > steady state maintained by energy. Without these > > life force, > > > > > > > > > > > there is no relationship. IMO, without chi, just > > this is > > > > only a > > > > > > > > > > > transient mental state and can not be maintained. > > The only > > > > > > way we > > > > > > > > > > > can be in sync with the wisdom of every moment, is by > > > > keeping in > > > > > > > > > > > pace with the rhythm of the life force. This is just > > simple > > > > > > > > physics. > > > > > > > > > > > * Enlightenment is just a synchronization with the laws > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > universe in real time in a dynamic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is for your reference. Thank you for your time, > > > > > > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > > > To save the world > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/2/2011 3:16 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi JM, Bill! and ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We > > instinctively know > > > > > > when a > > > > > > > > > > > > certain pain is telling us, "Stop what you're doing... > > > > > > NOW!" in > > > > > > > > order > > > > > > > > > > > > to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with > > the spine > > > > > > erect, > > > > > > > > > > > > cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at > > all > > > > and is > > > > > > > > merely > > > > > > > > > > > > discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to > > make us > > > > > > feel ok > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the > > illusionary > > > > > > aspect > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put > > > > that to the > > > > > > > > test > > > > > > > > > > > > and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental > > > > > > construct > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is > > > > > > impermanent). > > > > > > > > Far > > > > > > > > > > > > from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the > > > > body > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > laboratory to really experience what is ultimate > > > > reality and > > > > > > > > what is > > > > > > > > > > > > illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our > > > > zazen and > > > > > > > > then the > > > > > > > > > > > > whole house of cards comes crashing down with > > > > something simple > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > bad a toothache? I guess the key word is > > 'equanimity', > > > > but > > > > > > IMO, > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > > > can only realise > > > > > > > > > > > > it by going thru experience (trials and tribulations) > > > > and not > > > > > > > > thru > > > > > > > > > > > > merely reasoning about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a great deal about chi, but given its > > long > > > > > > time use > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental medicine, it must have some merit. What I've > > > > found > > > > > > > > recently, > > > > > > > > > > > > is that my sitting time has lengthened considerably > > > > due to the > > > > > > > > > > > > insights gained from observing what is happening > > to the > > > > > > > > body/mind > > > > > > > > > > > > during the meditation session. Along with these > > insights, > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to be both a mental and physical 'unblocking' of > > > > sorts, > > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > > > > feeling of energy being able to flow more easily. > > What > > > > this > > > > > > > > 'energy' > > > > > > > > > > > > is, and what is being 'unblocked' - I have no idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâèÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâúÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ¥ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¾ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâçÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâòÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâþÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¹ÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦"ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâý > > > > > > > > chan.jmjm@ > > > > > > > > > > > > *To:* [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > *Sent:* Friday, 3 June 2011, 2:49 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill and Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In our school, an effective sitting is the > > foundation to > > > > > > > > everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's sort of the only thing we are somewhat adamant > > > > > > about. If > > > > > > > > I may > > > > > > > > > > > > share with you some of the witnesses that I have from > > > > a few > > > > > > > > hundred > > > > > > > > > > > > cases in California. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we have pain, (not the bone fracture kind of > > pain, > > > > > > just the > > > > > > > > > > > > tendon, muscle kind), meanings our inner chi is > > trying > > > > to find > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > > > > passages. When we focus and be one with it, the > > pain will > > > > > > > > diminish in > > > > > > > > > > > > time, because when we focus on it, instead of > > > > resisting it, we > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > applying our chi to it. Sort of acupuncture there > > with > > > > our > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of a needle. I call that > > "soft-acupuncture". :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have many people began their practice with us, > > > > > > initially with > > > > > > > > > > lower > > > > > > > > > > > > back pain, sciatica, pain from spinal surgery, etc. > > > > All healed > > > > > > > > after > > > > > > > > > > > > a few months of sitting. Chi is our innate life > > force that > > > > > > > > energize > > > > > > > > > > > > itself wherever it was blocked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check this one out, please > > > > http://www.chanliving.org/pain.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since a few years ago, Bill has regarded Chi based > > > > sitting as > > > > > > > > > > illusory > > > > > > > > > > > > by his mind. If you could open your heart and > > welcomes all > > > > > > > > advice > > > > > > > > > > > > regardless of your judgmental mind, your pain > > probably > > > > already > > > > > > > > > > > > subsided by now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love you, Bill, you know. I hope you can open up > > > > your heart > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > stop walk a certain path. Each path, though is not > > > > > > perfect, has > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > > > own merit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to de-stress, energize and awaken > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chan-meditation.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to live with Health, Happiness and Harmony > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chanliving.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Learn to reach enlightenment > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > > > > To save the world > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/1/2011 11:00 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> You can tough it out if you want. I'll wave the > > white > > > > flag. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> IMO physical pain is your body telling you that > > > > something is > > > > > > > > > > wrong. I > > > > > > > > > > > >> try to listen to my body when it speaks. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> My approach to this is NOT what I was taught in my > > > > > > Japanese Zen > > > > > > > > > > > >> Buddhist training. They also thought you ought to > > tough > > > > > > it out. > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > did > > > > > > > > > > > >> that then, HOO-AH!, but I'm over that now. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown > > > > > > <uerusuboyo@> > > > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or > > > > back... > > > > > > > > Usually > > > > > > > > > > > >> pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting > > posture... > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I disagree. Usually pain in the legs, hips, back, > > > > shoulders > > > > > > > > > > etc. is > > > > > > > > > > > >> merely another word for 'discomfort' induced by > > sitting > > > > > > in one > > > > > > > > > > > >> position and not brought on by anything serious. You > > > > > > could have > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> suppleness of a yogi or ballerina and still > > > > experience 'pain' > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > >> sitting for an hour - in contrast to the very > > real pain > > > > > > caused > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > >> something more serious. Vipassana meditation > > encourages > > > > > > you to > > > > > > > > face > > > > > > > > > > > >> that discomfort and gain insight into the > > > > impermanence of > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > >> pain/discomfort and how our body/mind reactes to it > > > > (usually > > > > > > > > > > > >> aversion). Or you could just wave a white flag to > > it ; ) > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦Ãâá > > > > > > > > Hooah! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> <mailto:BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 2 June 2011, 9:48 > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > > > > > > > > > > >> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦Ãâá > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Nice try but my attachment to my zafu is via my > > butt > > > > > > and not > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > >> discriminating mind. I don't contemplate the various > > > > > > attributes > > > > > > > > > > of my > > > > > > > > > > > >> zafu while sitting. Like, 'What is it that keeps me > > > > off the > > > > > > > > floor?'. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > In sesshins (Japanese Zen Buddhist meditation > > > > > > retreats)I have > > > > > > > > sat > > > > > > > > > > > >> as long as 40 mins periods, and even up to 60 mins > > > > > > occasionally > > > > > > > > > > when the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > time-keeper goes to sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or > > > > back. I > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > >> some adjustments to try to alleviate the pain and > > > > continue > > > > > > > > sitting, > > > > > > > > > > > >> but if that fails I'll just get up, walk around a > > > > little and > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > >> return to sitting. Usually pain in the legs or back > > > > is do to > > > > > > > > bad > > > > > > > > > > > >> sitting posture so I make sure my posture is correct > > > > when I > > > > > > > > > > return to > > > > > > > > > > > >> sitting. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown > > > > > > <uerusuboyo@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > So it's safe to say you have no attacments to > > where > > > > > > or how > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > >> sit, other than what is comfortable at that > > > > particular time? > > > > > > > > Same > > > > > > > > > > > >> with the jhanas. They take you deeper into your > > > > > > meditation and > > > > > > > > help > > > > > > > > > > > >> to make the session last longer (much like > > > > discovering a zafu > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > >> fits your bum correctly ;) But they are not > > > > essential. There > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > >> warnings aplenty in the literature I've read against > > > > becoming > > > > > > > > > > > >> attached to them just like anything else (at the > > risk of > > > > > > > > becoming a > > > > > > > > > > > >> 'bliss-bunny'). > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > I usually time my sittings between 40-60 mins > > > > > > depending on > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > > >> busy I am. If I have time I'll do this twice a day, > > > > but at > > > > > > > > least > > > > > > > > > > once > > > > > > > > > > > >> in the evening. I usually sit cross-legged, but will > > > > > > sometimes > > > > > > > > sit > > > > > > > > > > > >> Burmese style. If I'm feeling that the session is > > > > going well > > > > > > > > (in a > > > > > > > > > > > >> vipassana sense), but the pain is becoming too > > > > distracting, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > I'll > > > > > > > > > > > >> stay mindful of my movements, but change to a more > > > > > > comfortable > > > > > > > > > > > >> position. However, the 40-60 min session is usually > > > > done with > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > >> movement or changing of position whatsoever (I > > wasn't > > > > kidding > > > > > > > > when I > > > > > > > > > > > >> said vipassana is the SAS of meditation > > > > > > > > > > > > sessions!).ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠'ÃÆ'Ã'ââ⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦Ãâá > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > To: [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011, 16:08 > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada > > Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠'ÃÆ'Ã'ââ⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦Ãâá > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > At home I have a zafu and zabuton. My zafu is > > > > x-large to > > > > > > > > > > > >> accomodate my x-large butt. I sit cross-legged > > now. I > > > > used to > > > > > > > > sit in > > > > > > > > > > > >> a half-lotus but never could really manage a > > > > full-lotus. I > > > > > > > > > > eventually > > > > > > > > > > > >> found the half-lotus to put me into a little bit of a > > > > > > tilt so I > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > > >> just sit cross-legged, and switch the top and > > bottom leg > > > > > > > > > > occasionally > > > > > > > > > > > >> when I remember to do so. I usually sit for > > 3-consequtive > > > > > > > > 20-minute > > > > > > > > > > > >> periods with a 5-minute break in between to get > > up and > > > > > > stretch, > > > > > > > > walk > > > > > > > > > > > >> around or go to the toliet. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > When I travel I just stuff a pillow between > > my legs > > > > > > and sit > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > > > >> kneeling position; or if that doesn't work I just > > sit on > > > > > > a firm > > > > > > > > > > chair > > > > > > > > > > > >> (wood is best), sitting on the front edge with my > > back > > > > > > straight > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > >> not leaning against the chair. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > How about you? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown > > > > > > <uerusuboyo@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >or (IMO) ATTACHMENT to jhanas. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Do you usually use a zafu/mat etc. to sit > > > > zazen, or do > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > > > >> sit wherever? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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