Jm thank you, appreciate your addition to the post . . . hopefully it offers insight as well as inspiration . . .
there is a key there, too, and I am going to give it away . . . has to do with 'function and capacity', how the false personality limits our 'function and capacity', that oftentimes rarified learned responses only feeds the condition (the Nafs) (Conditioned Self) . . . now we are back to practice and inquiry . . . just who is doing the asking and what are we asking? And then when our conditioned responses kick in, where is our Zen then? One Zen Master I met said, you use the conditioned self as a composte. best wishes zendervish --- In [email protected], Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <chan.jmjm@...> wrote: > > Valuable post. Thank you Zendervish, > > In parallel to your description of such practice, we call it "surpassing > our habits" vs. "transcending conditioning". Same meaning but in > different words. > > Habits, including our eating habits, sleeping habits etc. which creates > a certain pattern and "conditions" our health. Habitual thinking and > judgments, which limits our mind. Habitual comforts which limits our > spirituality. > > Habits as we all know are like our second nature. > > Just to support your post. > > Thank you, jm > > Learn the Basics of Chan Meditation... > http://www.chan-meditation.org > Chan in everyday life... > http://www.chanliving.org > To be enlightened in this life... > http://www.heartchan.org > To save our world... > http://www.universal-oneness.org > > > > On 9/7/2011 8:07 AM, salik888 wrote: > > > > Hello > > > > One way of stepping outside the back and forth dilemma of Zen games is > > to see it in another system, (as if Zen were not a system?). In the > > case of Sufism they liberate spirit/self/no self from the tyranny of > > conditioning. Of course there are those who would even deny that we > > are conditioned or that conditioning even exists. > > > > As an exercise, should you want to participate, everyone reading this > > will have an internal response . . . where does that response come > > from? How did it get there? Did your father react in the way you do? > > Or a teacher you admired? Were you around someone who thought they > > knew and when you got older you realized they didn't know much? Who is > > doing the responding? And why do you internally respond the way you > > do? Questions of this sort . . . Etc etc . . . so education, life > > experiences, the theatre of your family dymanics, how short you are, > > how tall you are, genetics, inflation, damage, were you laughed at, > > did someone tell you you were smart, dumb, lovalle, unlovable -- and > > how much attention did you need and how much attention do you need > > now? -- all this has to do with conditioning. Liberation, in my > > estimation, has to do with inquiry, not knowing, exploration, and as > > the Zen Buddhists say, "going beyond." > > > > Now we can ask, what are we being liberated from -- not in the general > > metaphysical one-up-manship sense of what I supposedly know, but > > taking the humility and courage to look at the false construct of -- > > you guessedit -- personality/ego . . . to bring ourselves back to > > "function" and "capacity". > > > > Much is made in Zen and Sufism to go beyond the conventionally > > contrived identification of ego, to go beyond the Ego, or to say in a > > clever way, it doesn't exist. But who is doing the asserting of that? > > . . . Depth psychology, while limited, can be useful to shine a light > > into the dynamics of your Ego and the Self/No Self. In the same way, > > emphasis on one aspect of so called Zen or Chan etc, the cultural > > expression, is limited as well . . . what the Traditions provide, > > along with a good dose of modern pyschology, for secular modern folks, > > is a whole and holistic encounter with, shall we say, "transcendence." > > > > (I realize words like enlightenment, satori, transcendence, etc are > > nebulous and loaded with all the wrong meanings these days, so I use > > them with a certain tongue in cheek) > > > > I would like to introduce a concept at this point . . . metabolism . . > > . to metabolize the experience in your life along with the presence of > > your being, the experience and encounter, not the automatic renderings > > of conditioned self/ego. To metabolize, and yes in terms of alchemy, > > the path of no path . . . the path no one takes but "you" -- "no you". > > (Have to be careful with Zen/zen dudes, they are tricky with language) > > > > The Sufis call it the Nafs, and the lowest most base aspect of the > > Nafs is the Nafs-an-Ammarah . . . the conditioned personality . . . > > this is "it" of Gurdjieff's reference to man as "machine" -- > > mechanical, in terms of education of past experiences . . . > > > > While some are in the luxury of being fully evolved that they can have > > discussions of "the end game" -- enlightenment, no enlightenment, who > > is being enlightened, etc . . . most have to begin where they are, > > broken, damaged, etc . . . the conditioning of the human being can be > > used to sell soap products, war, ideologies, mass hysteria, and > > parochialism of every kind -- like, for instance, my zen is better > > than your Chan, etc . . . > > > > True enough, there are cases of sudden enlightenment, or so the > > history show us, but in reality, most of this has to do with > > composting and working the soil with your hands. > > > > Of course I am speaking about the raising of awareness of your/our > > dilemma . . . this post is not for those who already know what > > zen/Zen/Chan "is". > > > > hope all is well > > > > best wishes > > > > zendervish > > > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > ED, > > > à > > > I need liberation from suffering. If I am told there is no such > > thing as suffering, and no such thing as me to liberate from, That is > > just cheating and playing nonsensical game. > > > à > > > Anthony > > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/9/11, ED <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: ED <seacrofter001@> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Mahayana II - beyond 7th & 8th consciousness > > > To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Tuesday, 6 September, 2011, 9:42 PM > > > > > > > > > à > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mayka and All, > > > Who on this Forum thinks that they need liberation from anything? > > > If anyone does, could they tell us what they need liberation from? > > > --ED > > > à > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > >à > > > > JMJM: > > > > There is anybody external to us to liberate from, but > > justà ourselves.à It was very good the teaching from Nishimaà of > > sitting down zazen and take the lid off from the potà in order to > > allow all ideas, images...evaporate in the sky.à There are not > > boddhisatvas saving the world but each of usà taking the lid off > > fromà ourselves mind pot.à The buddha, the dharma and the sangha is > > inà each inhalation and exhalation made in awareness.à > > > > Mayka > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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