Anthony, Quarks, dinosaurs, etc..., can only stand up to 'proof' if you have faith in the 'proof', have faith in the scientific method, have faith in logic and human concept of cause-and-effect.
All belief systems are built on faith, and science is such a system. Only raw, un-filtered, un-censored, un-interpreted, un-categorized, un-valuated sensory experience (Buddha Nature) can be accpeted without faith. It is the only real thing you have. All else are concepts and beliefs - and are based on faith, not immediate, raw experience. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > The story of turtles cannot stand proof, but quarks, dinosaurs, supernova... > can. Science and history are as much a belief system as the knowledge that > jumping from a nine story building without your psychic guru will get killed. > They are less of that than Yehowa asking you to kill the people you > conquered, and Buddha presenting a flower at the Vulture Peak. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 9:27 AM > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > >  > Anthony, > > ...and is the endless series of turtles any less of a belief system than our > theory of matter, molecules, atoms, atomic particles, hadrons, quarks, > etc..ad infinitum? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Historical facts and science are NOT based on a belief system. Many times > > they run counter each other. For instance, a scientist was lecturing on our > > solar system of the earth rotating around the sun. A woman rose from seat > > and declared it nonsense. She said, 'the earth is flat, supported by a huge > > turtle.' 'Who supports the turtle?', she was asked. 'Oh, you stupid. It is > > supported by another turtle. And still anothor turtle. It is turtles all > > the way down.' That is a belief system. > > à> > Grasshopper > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011 4:13 PM > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > à> > Anthony, > > > > And so, little grasshopper, are you saying that 'historical facts' and > > 'science' aren't based on a belief system? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > Ãâà> > > Belief systems and historical facts are different things. It is OK to > > > deify Buddha in sutras or any scriptures compiled in the name of Buddha, > > > as long as you bear that in mind. However, historical facts such as the > > > real life of Buddha and that of the sixth Patriarch had better be > > > maintained in as close to history as possible. I consider the latter a > > > 'science'. > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 4:56 PM > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony and ED, > > > > > > I don't take any of the Sutras or the story of the Flower Sermon as > > > absolute fact. I just assume they are mythic to a greater or lessor > > > extent. Whether or not any of these things written about in the Sutras, > > > the Bible or any other Holy Books actually happened is not important to > > > me. > > > > > > I still believe the 'seeds' of Buddhism are containted in the Sutras; the > > > 'seed' of Zen is revealed in the Flower Sermon; and the 'seed' of zen > > > (Buddha Nature) already exists in every sentient being. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > All teachings are continually evolving. See: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature> > > > > > > > > I find the Flower Sutra to be magnificent. Anyway, what matter to me is > > > > that the Flower Sutra edifies and inspires me - and that's all that > > > > matters to me. > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > > > If the Flower Sermon appeared in the 14th century, while the Buddha > > > > lived in the 6th Century BC, what happened in the 2,000 year gap? Did > > > > the physical Buddha returned from the grave to transmit the dharma? Or > > > > the 'dharmakaya' of the Buddha showed up to spread the untold teaching? > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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