I didn't say firing of neurons is illusory. I said the 'mentation' (duality, logic, rational thought, categorization, judgements, etc...) that is sometimes a product of that firing is illusory.
My anaolgy holds up here, I think. The switching on and off of the electrical circuits in a digital computer is where the real functions are happening, not in the GUI. It's just a pleasant and pleasing (and very limiting) representation and interface to the real guts of the machine. There can be multiple versions of GUIs that operate just fine on the same computer. Some versions may be better suited for a particular purpose than others, but you couldn't really say which one was the 'correct' GUI. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> wrote: > > The firing of neurons are no less real than the falling of rain, unless you > start to believe the content is something other than the firing of neurons. > > Can't eat when hungry, sleep when tired without that sense of the neurons. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Nov 4, 2011, at 18:57, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > Truthfully I haven't thought about that a lot. > > > > Just off-the-cuff I'd say I would object to saying that the awareness of > > mentation was a sixth sense. All your other senses bring you awareness of > > real things. Mentation is not a real thing, it is a collection of > > illusions, so I believe it is not in the same category as the other senses. > > > > This answer was arrived at without much thought so don't hold me to it to > > closely in the future... > > > > ...BIll! > > > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote: > >> > >> Do you disagree that the awareness of mentation is a sixth sense? (as I > >> have considered the heart sutra et alia to imply? And which I personally > >> find to be a very freeing bit of Buddhist insight). > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Chris Austin-Lane > >> Sent from a cell phone > >> > >> On Nov 2, 2011, at 21:39, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > >> > >>> ED, > >>> > >>> I'll answer your questions below in the reverse order that you asked them: > >>> > >>> [ED] By 'senses' I assume you refer to the five senses: ... > >>> > >>> I do mean what we call the five senses. > >>> > >>> From an illusory dualistic and discriminating (categorizing/judging) > >>> perspective there is a 'me/I' (self) so 'I have 5 senses. I see > >>> something blue and it is pretty.' > >>> > >>> Contrast this with a non-dualistic, non-discriminating perspective which > >>> would be: 'Just THIS!' - just awareness. That is no distinction between > >>> 'self' and 'sight', no catagorization of the awareness as 'blue' and no > >>> judgement made that it is 'pretty'. > >>> > >>> Just THIS! That is Buddha Nature. > >>> > >>> [ED] Was it the position of your Zen teachers? > >>> > >>> I've never discussed Buddha Nature in this manner with my Zen Buddhist > >>> teachers. If I had they would have probably told me to 'empty my bowls' > >>> - meaning 'don't try to intellectualize Buddha Nature'. But to directly > >>> answer your question, no - none of my teachers ever told me this. > >>> > >>> [ED] Is this position traditional in Zen? > >>> > >>> I don't know if there's anyone or any organization that could officially > >>> speak for Zen Buddhism. I think it is the 'traditional position' because > >>> most of the traditional koans and stories (mondos) of historical zen > >>> adepts that I've read or heard about support this position - at least it > >>> seems that way to me. > >>> > >>> In the end however I don't need any validation from traditional zen or > >>> from living Zen Buddhist teachers. I have experienced it myself. > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Bill, > >>>> > >>>>> I consider the 'root of zen' to be our senses ... > >>>> > >>>> Is this position traditional in Zen? > >>>> > >>>> Was it the position of your Zen teachers? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, ED > >>>> > >>>> PS: By 'senses' I assume you refer to the five senses: seeing, hearing, > >>>> touch, tasting, smelling. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ED, > >>>>> > >>>>> I consider the 'root of Buddhism' to be the sutras, and especially > >>>> those that are presented as a first-hand account of the teachings of > >>>> Siddartha Buddha. > >>>>> > >>>>> I consider the 'root of Zen Buddhism' to be the account of Siddartha > >>>> Buddha's 'Flower Sermon' on Vulture Peak when he is reported to have > >>>> wordlessly trasmited the Dharma to Mahakasyapa. > >>>>> > >>>>> I consider the 'root of zen' to be our senses: Just THIS! > >>>>> > >>>>> ...Bill! > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > >>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
