Hi Joe,  I felt your heart.  A bow to you.  JM

On 6/23/2012 8:36 AM, Joe wrote:

Well, P2,

And nonetheless there are indications that many of us have done our
homework, I'll tell. To assume otherwise as you do is uninformed:
which is to say, ignorant. Not the Ignorance that Buddhists talk
about, but "small I".

Stick around a while and come to know some of the ways of expression
that you'll find on this board and others. And keep your hammer-head
on the handle of Ash.

To the basic thread: I won't say you owe me or the Group an answer,
but I replied to you that we WILL gain a clear sense of the nature
of sentient beings when we awaken, and I cautioned that
to "speak too plainly" about the content of this part of the
experience may de-fuse some of the surprise and impact of it in us,
which is to say its power to transform us and society.

Zen is the "Sudden" School.

Zen does not rely on writings.

(All the metric-tons of Zen writings reiterate this).

Again, in a practice situation, such murmurings might be helpful to
a practitioner, but the audience would indeed be a select one, such
as the folks at the Fifth Patriarch's place, where Hui Neng shelled
rice. And, granted that words to the effect you emphasize are used
in the PLATFORM SUTRA, they can't be counted on to help anyone, and
indeed, in the wrong hands can harm. The PLATFORM SUTRA itself is
almost "not Orthodox", being the only writing of Chinese origin in
the entire Buddhist canon, as you must know and appreciate.

I would say, trust in the SUTRA, though. And in the traditions of
the Ch'an and Zen sect (not uniform by any means, and populated by
sub-sects of stellar brilliance). Now, what is that tradition? It
is a tradition of practice. It is not a tradition of teaching, nor
of intellectual understanding. The SUTRA emphasizes practice, and
tells the story of a practitioner's breakthrough with his teacher.

All the content of the SUTRA are in the breakthrough. I think we
are urged, by the power of the writing, to have that experience, too,
and undergo that transformation. The account of the content of the
experience is of little value, UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOME WAY OF
PRACTICING with it that is effective.

But I urge that you will need a teacher to do this with, and would
advise that you ought not do it on your own.

And probably, you should stop spreading documents that have the look
of official-dom, stamped with an HTML image seal, especially since
they have the power to do harm.

I'll let this thread go at that, although I am interested in your
repl(y)(ies) to me such as you may have, however belated and tardy
as this is. Take a while for any dust or ire to settle, and reply,
or email me directly.

But I am sure that there are others here, too, who would like to
hear from you in your words, and would value what you have in mind.

Go ahead and post it as an ordinary post: it's tedious to read
pronouncements and critiques that are wrapped in gaudy HTML
trappings. Such costume-posing mitigates any message; this is
something that many of us have given up by the end of our childhood;
seeing it is embarrassing.

With regards,

--Joe

> "pudgala2" <pudgala2@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!
>
> So far none of the replies in this thread contain any indication of
> having read
> or understood [snip]


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