Edgar,
Below you asked: "What do you think illusory actually means?", and that is
exactly what I dreamed about last night and was prepared to explain to you this
morning. I do think part, but not all, of our perpetual disagreement about
this is because we are using the same terms for 'reality' and 'illusion' but
they have different meanings to each of us. Below is what I mean by these
terms:
REALITY is experience. I sometimes say 'raw' experience to differentiate it
from 'perceptions' or 'illusions'.
EXPERIENCE is immediate sensory experience. There is actually no other kind of
experience, but we do use that word in common English to describe other things.
These 'other things' are illusions.
AWARENESS is actually implied by 'experience'. You can't say you've
'experienced' something if you're not aware of the experience, but I do
sometimes additionally use the term 'awareness' just to emphasize that state
and avoid confusion.
BUDDHA NATURE is experience, or using the superfluous add-on, is awareness of
experience. Again, experience is reality.
PERCEPTION is the post-processing of experience by your discriminating mind. I
think we agree on this term.
ILLUSION is the result of PERCEPTION, and can also just be fantasy (no basis in
reality at all).
Now I do think an additional difference between us that might not be apparent
here is that when I say reality is experience, I mean just that and only that.
There is no other or more reality than what's experienced. All inferences you
make about other or more reality are products of your discriminating mind and
are illusory. That doesn't mean they are not logical, practical or somewhat
dependable. They can be all of these but are still illusory.
Now to your post below.
I will repeat what I said below using the terms I've defined above. I don't
think that will make you agree with it, but at least you should be able to more
fully understand what I'm saying:
Reality has no structure. Experience is [the awareness of] reality and nothing
more. Experience does not present nor contains any structure such as time,
place, cause-and-effect, projections, assumptions, conclusions, judgments,
classifications, etc... Experience is reality. Experience is Just THIS!
That's it. That's all. Everything else you 'think' about reality is illusory
- a projection. Reality is holistic (non-dualistic). It's Just THIS! It's
not this and that. When you catch yourself (your dualistic self) creating this
and that then you are no longer holistically experiencing reality. You have
slipped into a dualistic mode are creating illusions.
Now to your example... You wrote: "You don't even admit that the sun rises in
the morning is evidence of the structure of reality when any schoolboy
understands that."
Buddha Nature is the awareness of only the total immediate sensual experience
of what we call the 'sunrise'. It would include sight and possibly touch,
sound and smell, and though unlikely maybe taste also. (These divisions of
experience into 5 senses has been done by our discriminating mind and I use
these terms for clarity only. Buddha Nature being holistic does not
discriminate between these senses and experiences them as a whole, Just THIS!)
So, what I've described above the experience. When you add things like 'the
sun', 'rising', 'morning' and the implication that this 'event' will 'happen
again' in the 'future', you are engaging your discriminating mind. Buddha
Nature is not aware of the divisions, classifications, projections or even the
terms I listed above in parenthesis (' '). These are all products of your
discriminating mind and are all illusory. (And again let me say that being
illusory doesn't mean they are not logical, practical or somewhat dependable.
They can be all of these but are still illusory.)
Whew! That's enough for now. I hope this post at least helps clarify my
position on these topics even if you still don't agree with me.
I might add all that I've posted is not what I have come to understand, but
what I have experienced; and is my best attempt to communicate that to you.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!
>
> What do you think illusory actually means? I know it's not what I think...
>
> And you are provably wrong on your first sentence. Discrimination is PART of
> reality. Discrimination has structure. Therefore reality (or at least part of
> it) has structure. Therefore your statement is self contradictory...
>
> Thus the world of forms has structure. I think your misunderstanding is not
> understanding that is true even though I agree that discrimination adds
> ADDITIONAL structure. The mental simulation of reality only works because
> there is some degree of accuracy in its modeling of the structure of reality.
> This is basic.
>
> If reality itself had no structure it could not exist and we could not exist.
>
> You don't even admit that the sun rises in the morning is evidence of the
> structure of reality when any schoolboy understands that.
>
> I've explained this tooooo many times and it still doesn't sink in!
> :-)
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:14 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > Everything that IS discriminated has structure. It's the discrimination
> > that gives it the structure, not the structure that allows it to be
> > discriminated.
> >
> > I don't disagree with you that everything in the world of forms has
> > structure, but all forms are illusory - and the structure is a structure we
> > impose on it.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!
> > >
> > > Everything that can be discriminated has structure including Merle's
> > > paintings. There is nothing in the world of forms that doesn't have
> > > structure.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 4, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > > Very nice! I like them because many of them appear to have structure
> > > > but actually do not...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> check here what i draw and paint
> > > >> Merle
> > > >> www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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