Edgar, What you say below is true but focus on the reader of your definitions. There are at least two other possibilities that focus on you as the author of these definitions.
- your definitions aren't very good so don't do a good job at pointing to the Way - your definitions are good but don't point to the Way. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > KG, > > Definitions are not Zen, but they are not pointless as you suggest because > they point the way. But only to those who are ready, only to those who look > not at the definition but at where it points... > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 11, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > > > And again, this is not what I am saying - not at all. This is only your > > insistence on your interpretations. This apparent negation, only your > > negations of my words, as I am negating nothing. > > > > Too simple for you, I realize. Naturally you will make what you will of it. > > I make nothing of it, and so leave you no other logical option. Such is > > your understanding. > > > > Define Zen as you see fit, but such definitions are pointless. > > > > KG > > > > On 10/11/2012 8:53 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >> > >> KG, > >> > >> > >> Your notion that nothing can be done to save the planet is dangerous and > >> mistaken. There are many who are working diligently including myself. To > >> what extent it succeeds remains to be seen. > >> > >> Zen is not equivalent to hopelessness, inaction and nihilism as you imply. > >> That's a serious Western misconception. Action can be done with Zen quite > >> effectively... Action is NOT inconsistent with Zen. > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> I never said a wit about OK/not OK. That's your judgement. > >>> > >>> I simply find the very premise, as you lay it out, to be formed of the > >>> same destructive impulse to control. > >>> > >>> I might say planetary scale destruction is inevitable, as that appears a > >>> logical albeit pointless conclusion, but I certainly don't claim to know > >>> so. Nor do I have reason to be concerned in the way you appear to be. > >>> Righteous indignation may feel good, but it's not a prerequisite for > >>> action. It only acts to spins the wheel. > >>> > >>> KG > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 10/10/2012 7:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Merle, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Yes, KG seems obsessively attached to this discussion and why destroying > >>>> the planet is OK... > >>>> :-) > >>>> > >>>> Edgar > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 5:56 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> hey hey lads...settle down..calm please!...KG your loosing the > >>>>> pulse..merle > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, yes. That you hold a great many things to be of high importance is > >>>>> obvious to all but you. Thus you assume others are are talking about > >>>>> such things, and assume they are ignorant of same, when they are only > >>>>> talking about your ignorant attachments to these forms of divisive > >>>>> thinking. > >>>>> > >>>>> KG > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10/10/2012 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> KG, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I find it appalling you support the destruction of the planet by > >>>>>> humans and attack those who argue against it... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The lowest of the low... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Edgar > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Definitive dependency - in other words you frame this in a > >>>>>>> self-supporting way. The way a child argues when trying to sound all > >>>>>>> grown up. You might as well just say: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "You are a stupid baby! Stop being such a stupid baby!" *L* > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> No one is denying 'reality' but you Edgar. You are perverting others > >>>>>>> words to fit your preconceptions. You frame things as being out of > >>>>>>> control/needing to be controlled - which is the very divisive > >>>>>>> attitude that causes all the shit you find so wrong in the world. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Opposition distracts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> KG > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 10/10/2012 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Bill, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> By your perverted logic it is totally OK for man to be destroying > >>>>>>>> the planet because that's just a > >>>>>>>> natural process. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Grow up and get real. Zen is not clever sophisms, it's reality... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Edgar > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 6:20 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What's REALLY important is that it's been framed wrong. It's been > >>>>>>>>> framed as humans vs. nature, or as you put it humans 'interfering' > >>>>>>>>> in nature. As long as humans think they are not part of nature and > >>>>>>>>> taht all their action are natural there will be this problem. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> When a beaver builds a dam is that interfering with nature? When a > >>>>>>>>> squirrel shits in the woods is that interfering with nature? When a > >>>>>>>>> human splits an atom is that interfering with nature? When a human > >>>>>>>>> manipulates DNA is that interfering with nature? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What is the quality that humans have that other animals don't have > >>>>>>>>> that renders them capable of interference - IYO? (I just made that > >>>>>>>>> up, IYO = 'in your opinion') > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > Come on Bill. > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > In human discourse about Man's impact on nature, that's the way > >>>>>>>>> > it's defined, and the whole issue is framed, as you well know... > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > Edgar > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Bill! wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > Edgar, > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > This was a VERY SERIOUS response. > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > Why is it that you think the things that humans do are > >>>>>>>>> > > 'unnatural' or against nature but the things that other life > >>>>>>>>> > > does is 'natural' and okay? A friend of mine very wisely > >>>>>>>>> > > (IMO)once suggested that all ethics should be applied to humans > >>>>>>>>> > > and other life forms equally. > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > What is the quality that you believe separates humans from the > >>>>>>>>> > > rest of nature so that human activities and artifacts can be > >>>>>>>>> > > labeled as 'interference'? > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > ...Bill! > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > Joe, > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > Come on, it's a serious issue... > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > Edgar > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Joe wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Edgar, > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > And Humans are just the tip of the iceberg, too. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > I don't know why plants and animals insist on interfering > >>>>>>>>> > > > > with the way Nature works. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > For example, on the early earth there was a nice atmosphere > >>>>>>>>> > > > > without oxygen. But blasted Cyanobacteria evolved which > >>>>>>>>> > > > > like to sip the methane and other gases there were back > >>>>>>>>> > > > > then, and started polluting the atmosphere with ...Oxygen! > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Then -- wouldn't you know -- other organisms formed which > >>>>>>>>> > > > > turned CO2 into even MORE Oxygen, with a help from light > >>>>>>>>> > > > > from the Sun. The nerve! They got away with it, though, > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > because there were no Police. The rug was pulled out from > >>>>>>>>> > > > > under Nature yet again! > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Later, some animals evolved, which USE the oxygen. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Much later, some of these animals of the Mammal variety > >>>>>>>>> > > > > called "Beavers" began to INSIST that they interfere with > >>>>>>>>> > > > > the stately FLOW of river tributaries and streams, by > >>>>>>>>> > > > > ...damming them up! Such nerve. You may be sure that this > >>>>>>>>> > > > > caused inundations upstream, and occasional floods > >>>>>>>>> > > > > downstream when the dams burst. Havoc. Bye, bye, Nature! > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > The nerve of these organisms: Micro-organisms, Plants, and > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Animals. Always interfering with the way Nature works! > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > At least on the Moon there is no such interference, there's > >>>>>>>>> > > > > just a continual, thin, rain of meteorites pummeling the > >>>>>>>>> > > > > surface, and no atmosphere to make things rust. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Oops!, some exotic Mammals left some footprints on the > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Moon, and some machinery, during the last fifty years. WHY > >>>>>>>>> > > > > must there always be such interference? The Moon had been > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Nature's nice, quiet, haven for rock and dust for so long. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > Why must things always go downhill? > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > --Joe > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > On 10/7/2012 9:26 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > Why do humans always insist on interfering with the way > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > nature works? > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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