Bill!, The cliff in the USA is too deep to be filled with currency. Mitt Romney will make $5 trillion tax cuts, because of that, Ben Benanke will print $10 trillion currency. every body can roll them into cigarettes and enjoy smoking. Anthony
________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 8:28 Subject: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice USA! USA! USA! Like any good Buddhist if we are running low on currency we'll create some more - out of compassion. ...Bill! --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Mike, >  > I know you will not jump off a cliff. But the fiscal cliff in the US needs to > be jumped over, at least the horse they ride has to be reined in. Bernanke is > out of his wit. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> > To: "mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com"; <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 6:37 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice > > >  > Anthony, > > I wasn't denying 'scientific' cause and effect at all! What I'm saying, and > which mirrors Hume, is that there is no causative link to be found in a > sequance of events. Was it it the finger pushing the switch that turn the > light on, or the current in the circuit board, the filament, even the > intention of the person who pushes the switch (was the room dark because of a > thunder storm)? etc etc etc... > > I think Buddha "had his finger on the pulse" in this regard. The above is > nothing other than Dependent Origination - everything is inter-connected > which makes cause and effect nothing other that a useful convention. Nothing > to do with denying it. > > Mike > > > ________________________________ > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> > To: "mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com"; <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 22:23 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice > > >  > Bill/Mike, >  > If you want to deny scientific cause and effect, jump off a cliff (not a > fiscal one). > If you want to deny Buddhist cause and effect, kill your neighbor. I hope > attaining Buddha nature can avoid this, but then you don't kill your neighbor > either. >  > Anthony > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 18:14 > Subject: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice > > >  > Mike, > > I didn't miss it but you didn't finish your statement so I wasn't sure...Bill! > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > You missed my last line: > > > > >Compared to a scientific observation, this truth of Buddhist cause and > > effect can be observed by each and every one of us, until... ; ) > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 10:42 > > Subject: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice > > > > > >  > > Mike, > > > > Well for starters during my koan study the most troublesome koan for me was > > HYAKUJO'S FOX. After my initial breakthrough koan I seemed to race through > > the next 10 or so until I got to that one. I finally passed it but it took > > me almost a month of intense effort. > > > > Notwithstanding my response to HYAKUJO'S FOX I'll just say this: > > > > You asked: "...what [do] you think about the Buddhist idea of cause and > > effect?" > > > > I ASSUME by that you mean 'karma'. I believe karma like all other metal > > constructs is illusory. What that means is I believe if you are attached to > > your dualistic illusions, especially that of self, you are subject to karma. > > > > If however you not attached to your illusions, or better yet are > > manifesting Buddha Nature there is no self, so there is no karma. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > >I'm not the only one who has these doubts. > > > > > > > > > You're certainly in good company! But if you're skeptical about cause and > > > effect in science (as am I.. you're now in excellent company), I'd be > > > interested as to what you think about the Buddhist idea of cause and > > > effect? > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 10:13 > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice > > > > > > > > >  > > > Mike, > > > > > > Thanks for the tip but I'm very aware of this. > > > > > > I've got Hume's COMPLETE WORKS which include his AN ENQUIRY INTO HUMAN > > > UNDERSTANDING in which he records his thoughts about cause-and-effect, > > > and Kant's A CRITIQUE OF PURE REASON on my Kindle they are both loaded > > > with my yellow highlights. Also Plato's PARMENDIDES, Betrand Russel's THE > > > PROBLEMS OF PHILOSOPHY and of course THE PARADOXES OF ZENO. > > > > > > I'm not the only one who has these doubts. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > For me, David Hume does a great job of dispelling the idea of cause and > > > > effect. Although useful, cause and effect is nothing more than an > > > > assumption about the future based on observation of repeated phenomena. > > > > For example, is pushing on a light switch the cause of the light > > > > turning on? We observe that this happens 99 out of a hundred times, but > > > > is the pressing of the switch or the electricity travelling down the > > > > wires, the heating of the element? etc etc This could continued almost > > > > ad infinitum to the point where the finger pushing the switch seems > > > > like a different event entirely. So we just assume that pushing a light > > > > switch will turn on the light. Anyway, that's my (simplistic) > > > > understanding of Hume. > > > > > > > > In Buddhism, however, cause and effect can be taken somewhat > > > > differently. In terms of suffering, the Buddha found that 'if this > > > > arises - so does that. If this doesn't arise - that doesn't arise'. We > > > > can observe within ourselves that if greed, hate, anger (this) etc. > > > > arises then suffering/dissatisfaction (that) arises, too. If love, > > > > compassion, peace arises then Happiness arises. If hate, anger etc > > > > don't arise then suffering doesn't arise. Compared to a scientific > > > > observation, this truth of Buddhist cause and effect can be observed by > > > > each and every one of us, until... ; ) > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 4:15 > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Then I'll add to my sparse defintion: > > > > > > > > Science is a religion whose method is based on a faith in the concept > > > > of cause-and-effect and whose 'corpus' is based on the dualistic > > > > illusion of subject/object. > > > > > > > > Is that better? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > Some of the body of Science -- the corpus, not the Method -- is pure > > > > > categorization, based on stringent and accumulated, vetted, > > > > > observation. > > > > > > > > > > Botany, for example. And some basics of Astronomy. Geology. > > > > > > > > > > What's formed and what accumulates are lists of entities and their > > > > > properties, and how to tell them apart. No causality yet. > > > > > > > > > > I think, at that level, observational science is more an Art, or act > > > > > of careful book-keeping, than it is yet Religion, or other endeavor > > > > > dependent on Faith. It's a fun stage of the game!, and it takes a lot > > > > > of work. > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > Science is a religion based on faith in the concept of > > > > > > cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
