Joe, RAF et al... Joe wrote and others questioned his statement: > There are confirmatory signs which a teacher can recognize
I am not a teacher so I cannot confidently comment on what signs these might be. The three zen masters with which I have had enough contact to observe them perform this action seemed to have some criteria when it came to confirming my realization. They primarily asked me to SHOW them or DEMONSTRATE Buddha Nature. They seemed to want to see this done in several ways, but I did not get the sense that there was some particular thing they were looking for. Maybe there was and I just did not know that. None of them asked me to EXPLAIN it. I've never seen them confirm anyone else's realization. Besides not being a teacher myself, I also am not overly interested in determining whether or not someone else has realized Buddha Nature. I am pretty much focused on my zen practice and interactions with others regardless of what I might judge is the level of their interest in zen or realization of Buddha Nature. RAF wrote: > I find myself more interested in the occasions when a /teacher/ emits a sign > of /their/ illumination. Might you, or Bill, share with us some instances you > have encountered in your time immersed in the American zen scene? Firstly, I'd have to start by saying I believe the realization of Buddha Nature is no different today in America than it was the the 6th century B.C. when Siddhartha Guatama is said to have realized it; and through his wordless flower sermon on Vulture Peak lead Maha Kashapa, one of his students, also to realization. I do agree that the teaching methods vary from culture to culture and time to time. Secondly, my formal training in zen was done in what I believe was a setting based on fairly traditional Japanese Zen Buddhist teaching techniques given in a sangha which was tailored to the 1960's American urban lifestyle in that in did not require a commitment to be a permanent residence in order to fully participate as a student in all the activities. There were however some students who did make such a such commitment. I was not one of those. With all that said my answer to RAF's question will I'm sure be underwhelming...I couldn't put my finger on any one or two things that led me to believe that my teachers had fully realized Buddha Nature and were able to demonstrate that in their daily lives. Words that immediately spring to mind are 'spontaneous', 'real', 'genuine', 'unrehearsed', 'plain' and 'unassuming'. They always seemed to have something very short and simple to say that would at first seem almost trivial, but after more reflection their words seemed to blossom into layers and layers of meaning and wisdom - and mystery. I realize also that the setting and the very designation and acceptance by the entire sangha that they were, if not fully realized beings, at least very accomplished masters and adept teachers. I'm sure that 'group mentality' probably had a heavy influence on the way I saw them. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], R A Fonda <rafonda@...> wrote: > > On 12/9/2012 11:10 AM, Joe wrote: > > There are confirmatory signs which a teacher can recognize > > I find myself more interested in the occasions when a /teacher/ emits a > sign of /their/ illumination. Might you, or Bill, share with us some > instances you have encountered in your time immersed in the American zen > scene? You have mentioned Bernie whatshisname and Aitken, for instance; > what did they do or say that stands out in your memory? Of course, I > don't mean to confine such observations to them, and what did they or > their heirs say in regard to their awards of inka? > > Just to give you an idea of the kind of thing I am thinking about: you > recall that old Chinese zenji who had the monastery gate slammed shut on > him, when he was a wandering monk, breaking his leg (which, as I recall, > induced his 'first glimpse of emptiness') ... what grandfatherly > kindness! I can't help but wonder (bearing in mind that the gate was > forced shut against many monks who did NOT have kensho) if that was a > happy accident, rather than an example of the resident master's deep > wisdom/compassion (would /he/ have been the one to close the gate; I > doubt it) or an example of his understandable decision NOT to 'care for > and share with' every wandering rice-bag who wanted to live off the > charity of those who supported the monastery. > > RAF > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
