There is an old zen saying that I've posted before but I think is appropriate to post again on this thread...
'Even the most talented teacher cannot bring an insincere student to realization; but a sincere student can come to realization under even a false teacher.' - (paraphrased from memory)... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Joe, RAF et al... > > Joe wrote and others questioned his statement: > > There are confirmatory signs which a teacher can recognize > > I am not a teacher so I cannot confidently comment on what signs these might > be. The three zen masters with which I have had enough contact to observe > them perform this action seemed to have some criteria when it came to > confirming my realization. They primarily asked me to SHOW them or > DEMONSTRATE Buddha Nature. They seemed to want to see this done in several > ways, but I did not get the sense that there was some particular thing they > were looking for. Maybe there was and I just did not know that. None of > them asked me to EXPLAIN it. I've never seen them confirm anyone else's > realization. > > Besides not being a teacher myself, I also am not overly interested in > determining whether or not someone else has realized Buddha Nature. I am > pretty much focused on my zen practice and interactions with others > regardless of what I might judge is the level of their interest in zen or > realization of Buddha Nature. > > RAF wrote: > > I find myself more interested in the occasions when a /teacher/ emits a > > sign of /their/ illumination. Might you, or Bill, share with us some > > instances you have encountered in your time immersed in the American zen > > scene? > > Firstly, I'd have to start by saying I believe the realization of Buddha > Nature is no different today in America than it was the the 6th century B.C. > when Siddhartha Guatama is said to have realized it; and through his wordless > flower sermon on Vulture Peak lead Maha Kashapa, one of his students, also to > realization. I do agree that the teaching methods vary from culture to > culture and time to time. > > Secondly, my formal training in zen was done in what I believe was a setting > based on fairly traditional Japanese Zen Buddhist teaching techniques given > in a sangha which was tailored to the 1960's American urban lifestyle in that > in did not require a commitment to be a permanent residence in order to > fully participate as a student in all the activities. There were however > some students who did make such a such commitment. I was not one of those. > > With all that said my answer to RAF's question will I'm sure be > underwhelming...I couldn't put my finger on any one or two things that led me > to believe that my teachers had fully realized Buddha Nature and were able to > demonstrate that in their daily lives. Words that immediately spring to mind > are 'spontaneous', 'real', 'genuine', 'unrehearsed', 'plain' and > 'unassuming'. They always seemed to have something very short and simple to > say that would at first seem almost trivial, but after more reflection their > words seemed to blossom into layers and layers of meaning and wisdom - and > mystery. > > I realize also that the setting and the very designation and acceptance by > the entire sangha that they were, if not fully realized beings, at least very > accomplished masters and adept teachers. I'm sure that 'group mentality' > probably had a heavy influence on the way I saw them. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], R A Fonda <rafonda@> wrote: > > > > On 12/9/2012 11:10 AM, Joe wrote: > > > There are confirmatory signs which a teacher can recognize > > > > I find myself more interested in the occasions when a /teacher/ emits a > > sign of /their/ illumination. Might you, or Bill, share with us some > > instances you have encountered in your time immersed in the American zen > > scene? You have mentioned Bernie whatshisname and Aitken, for instance; > > what did they do or say that stands out in your memory? Of course, I > > don't mean to confine such observations to them, and what did they or > > their heirs say in regard to their awards of inka? > > > > Just to give you an idea of the kind of thing I am thinking about: you > > recall that old Chinese zenji who had the monastery gate slammed shut on > > him, when he was a wandering monk, breaking his leg (which, as I recall, > > induced his 'first glimpse of emptiness') ... what grandfatherly > > kindness! I can't help but wonder (bearing in mind that the gate was > > forced shut against many monks who did NOT have kensho) if that was a > > happy accident, rather than an example of the resident master's deep > > wisdom/compassion (would /he/ have been the one to close the gate; I > > doubt it) or an example of his understandable decision NOT to 'care for > > and share with' every wandering rice-bag who wanted to live off the > > charity of those who supported the monastery. > > > > RAF > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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