Edgar At the risk of being insensitive, I have to say I agree with your content, rather than your delivery, which is just the function of personality. Anyway, I have at times a direct confrontational style that I am trying to, at least, watch, observe . . . Anyway . . . bottom line -- they could leave anytime . . . all these rationalizations along the lines of power dynamics come out of Andrea Dworkin, etc . . . while it certainly pertains to child molestation (power dynamics), it does not pertain to the boss, the guru, the hero, the general, etc . . . this is pure Gloria Allred (sp) power/victim stuff . . .
A little course in Sartre would cure them all. Having said that, it is unfortunate the people get groped without warning, and well I would say it should only happen once. I have a family member who has been beaten by her husband several times. Naturally it prompts a male response in me, at least at first . . . like, what the fuck is up with that!????? However, she keeps going back . . . so at this point, even though I love her dearly, it's her fault . . . she boohoos about her big lifestyle . . . I don't have any way to work . . . so you have to stay and get beat up because you like your nice house, your money and your things? Sorry, as Jack Nicholson said, "sell crazy some place else, we are all stocked up here." /\ zendervish --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > OK, glad you asked. > > For me it's a non issue and has nothing to do with Zen. If this guy wants to > fondle his students that's fine with me and I couldn't care less. After all > in spite of what the article implied it was obviously entirely consensual in > that there was no force and the women could have just walked out if they > wanted to at any time. > > Therefore all these acts WERE entirely consensual. It's not like pedophile > priests or abusive Catholic nuns who have actual physical control over the > children they are abusing. > > The typical dynamic in cases like this is that the women are initially > pleased by the sexual attention from the master and only condemn it later on > when they realize that they were not the master's ONLY chosen love because he > was doing it to other women as well. Typical female jealousy distorted by our > insanely politically correct culture. > > The fact that there was a student master relationship has NOTHING at all to > do with it. There is absolutely NO loss of the ability to consent in such a > relationship because the woman can freely walk away any time she chooses to > not participate. > > It also points out the extreme gullible naivete of many westerners, > especially western WOMEN, who will grovel in any kind of nonsense at > practically any cost from foreign 'gurus' no matter how delusional their > message is. > > There is an insane western politically correct delusion that spiritual (and > other types of) leaders aren't and can't be normal sexual beings and if they > dare have any sexual desires they lose their spiritual authority. > > Zen has nothing to do with rejecting sexuality or any other aspect of normal > life. More power to the randy old goat! If his female students are either > gullible and stupid enough or receptive enough to allow his sexual attention > then so what? > > What is perverse about this whole situation is that anyone even cares..... > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Feb 19, 2013, at 3:08 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > So what do YOU think about this? That's what I'm interested in. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > Zen Groups Distressed by Accusations Against Teacher > > > > > > Rick Scibelli, Jr. for The New York Times > > > Joshu Sasaki in New Mexico in 2007. Some former students say they were > > > encouraged to believe that being groped by him was part of their Zen > > > training. > > > By MARK OPPENHEIMER and IAN LOVETT > > > Published: February 11, 2013 > > > FACEBOOK > > > TWITTER > > > GOOGLE+ > > > SAVE > > > E-MAIL > > > SHARE > > > PRINT > > > REPRINTS > > > > > > Since arriving in Los Angeles from Japan in 1962, the Buddhist teacher > > > Joshu Sasaki, who is 105 years old, has taught thousands of Americans at > > > his two Zen centers in the area and one in New Mexico. He has influenced > > > thousands more enlightenment seekers through a chain of some 30 > > > affiliated Zen centers from the Puget Sound to Princeton to Berlin. And > > > he is known as a Buddhist teacher of Leonard Cohen, the poet and > > > songwriter. > > > Multimedia > > > DOCUMENT: Report on Joshu Sasaki Allegations > > > > > > Connect With Us on Twitter > > > Follow@nytimesworld for international breaking news and headlines. > > > Twitter List: Reporters and Editors > > > Enlarge This Image > > > > > > Patrick T. Fallon for The New York Times > > > Mr. Sasaki's Rinzai-ji center in Los Angeles. His senior priests are > > > conducting their own inquiry. > > > Enlarge This Image > > > > > > Martin Tessler for The New York Times > > > Nikki Stubbs, who studied at a Zen center with Joshu Sasaki from 2003 to > > > 2006, said he would touch her inappropriately. > > > Mr. Sasaki has also, according to an investigation by an independent > > > council of Buddhist leaders, released in January, groped and sexually > > > harassed female students for decades, taking advantage of their loyalty > > > to a famously charismatic roshi, or master. > > > > > > The allegations against Mr. Sasaki have upset and obsessed Zen Buddhists > > > across the country, who are part of a close-knit world in which many > > > participants seem to know, or at least know of, the principal teachers. > > > > > > Mr. Sasaki did not respond to requests for interviews made through Paul > > > Karsten, a member of the board of Rinzai-ji, his main center in Los > > > Angeles. Mr. Karsten said that Mr. Sasaki's senior priests are conducting > > > their own inquiry. And he cautioned that the independent council took the > > > accounts it heard from dozens of students at face value and did not > > > investigate any "for veracity." > > > > > > Because Mr. Sasaki has founded or sponsored so many Zen centers, and > > > because he has the prestige of having trained in Japan, the charges that > > > he behaved unethically and that his supporters looked the other way > > > have implications for an entire way of life. > > > > > > Such charges have become more frequent in Zen Buddhism. Several other > > > teachers have been accused of misconduct recently, notably Eido Shimano, > > > who in 2010 was asked to resign from the Zen Studies Society in Manhattan > > > over allegations that he had sex with students. Critics and victims have > > > pointed to a Zen culture of secrecy, patriarchy and sexism, and to the > > > quasi-religious worship of the Zen master, who can easily abuse his > > > status. > > > > > > Disaffected students wrote letters to the board of one of Mr. Sasaki's > > > Zen centers as early as 1991. Yet it was only last November, when Eshu > > > Martin, a Zen priest who studied under Mr. Sasaki from 1997 to 2008, > > > posted a letter toSweepingZen.com, a popular Web site, that the wider Zen > > > world noticed. > > > > > > Mr. Martin, now a Zen abbot in Victoria, British Columbia, accused Mr. > > > Sasaki of a "career of misconduct," from "frequent and repeated > > > non-consensual groping of female students" to "sexually coercive > > > after-hours `tea' meetings, to affairs," as well as interfering in his > > > students' marriages. Soon thereafter, the independent "witnessing > > > council" of noted Zen teachers began interviewing 25 current or former > > > students of Mr. Sasaki. > > > > > > Some former students are now speaking out, including seven interviewed > > > for this article, and their stories provide insight into the culture of > > > Rinzai-ji and the other places where Mr. Sasaki taught. Women say they > > > were encouraged to believe that being touched by Mr. Sasaki was part of > > > their Zen training. > > > > > > The Zen group, or sangha, can become one's close family, and that aspect > > > of Zen may account for why women and men have been reluctant to speak out > > > for so long. > > > > > > Many women whom Mr. Sasaki touched were resident monks at his centers. > > > One woman who confronted Mr. Sasaki in the 1980s found herself an outcast > > > afterward. The woman, who asked that her name not be used to protect her > > > privacy, said that afterward "hardly anyone in the sangha, whom I had > > > grown up with for 20 years, would have anything to do with us." > > > > > > In the council's report on Jan. 11, the three members wrote of "Sasaki > > > asking women to show him their breasts, as part of `answering' a koan" > > > a Zen riddle "or to demonstrate `non-attachment.' " > > > > > > When the report was posted to SweepingZen, Mr. Sasaki's senior priests > > > wrote in a post that their group "has struggled with our teacher Joshu > > > Sasaki Roshi's sexual misconduct for a significant portion of his career > > > in the United States" their first such admission. > > > > > > Among those who spoke to the council and for this article was Nikki > > > Stubbs, who now lives in Vancouver, and who studied and worked at Mount > > > Baldy, Mr. Sasaki's Zen center 50 miles east of Los Angeles, from 2003 to > > > 2006. During that time, she said, Mr. Sasaki would fondle her breasts > > > during sanzen, or private meeting; he also asked her to massage his > > > penis. She would wonder, she said, "Was this teaching?" > > > > > > One monk, whom Ms. Stubbs said she told about the touching, was > > > unsympathetic. "He believed in Roshi's style, that sexualizing was > > > teaching for particular women," Ms. Stubbs said. The monk's theory, > > > common in Mr. Sasaki's circle, was that such physicality could check a > > > woman's overly strong ego. > > > > > > A former student of Mr. Sasaki's now living in the San Francisco area, > > > who asked that her name be withheld to protect her privacy, said that at > > > Mount Baldy in the late 1990s, "the monks confronted Roshi and said, > > > `This behavior is unacceptable and has to stop.' " However, she said, > > > "nothing changed." After a time, Mr. Sasaki used Zen teaching to justify > > > touching her, too. > > > > > > "He would say something like, `True love is giving yourself to > > > everything,' " she explained. At Mount Baldy, the isolation could hamper > > > one's judgment. "It can sound trite, but you're in this extreme state of > > > consciousness," she said living at a monastery in the mountains, > > > sitting in silence for many hours a day "where boundaries fall away." > > > > > > Joe Marinello is a Zen teacher in Seattle who served on the board of the > > > Zen Studies Society in New York. He has been openly critical of Mr. > > > Shimano, the former abbot who was asked to resign from the society. Asked > > > about teachers who say that sexual touch is an appropriate teaching > > > technique, he was dismissive. > > > > > > "In my opinion," Mr. Marinello said in an e-mail, "it's just their > > > cultural and personal distortion to justify their predations." > > > > > > But in Zen Buddhism, students often overlook their teachers' failings, > > > participants say. Some Buddhists define their philosophy in contrast to > > > Western religion: Buddhism, they believe, does not have Christian-style > > > preoccupations about things like sex. And Zen exalts the relationship > > > between a student and a teacher, who can come to seem irreplaceable. > > > > > > "Outside the sexual things that happened," the woman now in San Francisco > > > said, "my relationship with him was one of the most important I have had > > > with anyone." > > > > > > Several women said that Zen can foster an atmosphere of overt sexism. > > > Jessica Kramer, a doula in Los Angeles, was Mr. Sasaki's personal > > > attendant in 2002. She said that he would reach into her robe and that > > > she always resisted his advances. Surrounded almost entirely by men, she > > > said she got very little sympathy. "I'd talk about it with people who'd > > > say, `Why not just let him touch your breasts if he wants to touch your > > > breasts?' " > > > > > > Susanna Stewart began studying with Mr. Sasaki about 40 years ago. Within > > > six months, she said, Mr. Sasaki began to touch her during sanzen. This > > > sexualizing of their relationship "led to years of confusion and pain," > > > Ms. Stewart said, "eventually resulting in my becoming unable to practice > > > Zen." And when she married one of his priests, Mr. Sasaki tried to break > > > them up, she said, even encouraging her husband to have an affair. > > > > > > In 1992, Ms. Stewart's husband disaffiliated himself and his North > > > Carolina Zen Centerfrom Mr. Sasaki. Years later, his wife said, he > > > received hate mail from members of his old Zen group. > > > > > > The witnessing council, which wrote the report, has no official > > > authority. Its members belong to the American Zen Teachers Association > > > but collected stories on their own initiative, although with a statement > > > of support from 45 other teachers and priests. One of its authors, Grace > > > Schireson, said that Zen Buddhists in the United States have > > > misinterpreted a Japanese philosophy. > > > > > > "Because of their long history with Zen practice, people in Japan have > > > some skepticism about priests," Ms. Schireson said. But in the United > > > States many proponents have a "devotion to the guru or the teacher in a > > > way that could repress our common sense and emotional intelligence." > > > > > > Last Thursday morning, at Rinzai-ji on Cimarron Street in Los Angeles, > > > Bob Mammoser, a resident monk, said that Mr. Sasaki's "health is quite > > > frail" and that he has "basically withdrawn from any active teaching." > > > Mr. Mammoser said there is talk of a meeting at the center to discuss > > > what, if any, action to take. > > > > > > Mr. Mammoser said he first became aware of allegations against Mr. Sasaki > > > in the 1980s. "There have been efforts in the past to address this with > > > him," Mr. Mammoser said. "Basically, they haven't been able to go > > > anywhere." > > > > > > He added: "What's important and is overlooked is that, besides this > > > aspect, Roshi was a commanding and inspiring figure using Buddhist > > > practice to help thousands find more peace, clarity and happiness in > > > their own lives. It seems to be the kind of thing that, you get the > > > person as a whole, good and bad, just like you marry somebody and you get > > > their strengths and wonderful qualities as well as their weaknesses." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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