Bill!,<br/><br/>>>The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause
and effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we eat".
<<<br/><br/>Yes, because all phenomena are conditioned.<br/><br/>>>Implying
doesn't make it so. <<<br/><br/>It also doesn't make it not so.<br/><br/>>>The
saying is just meant to describe impromptu, unconditioned action, not to
illustrate cause-and-effect.<<<br/><br/>I recognise that it's main point is not
to imply cause and effect, but you can't extract it from that situation
either.<br/><br/>>>Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the
koan to jump to the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for 500
lifetimes is NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was POSITIVE
karma.<<<br/><br/>You'll recall that the old man said he was doomed to live 500
lifetimes as a fox and he begged Hyakujo to free him from living as an animal.
Seems quite explicit to me. Similarly, being freed
resulted in his enlightenment. I'd say that was pretty positive.<br/><br/>>>
Also you've neglected to note that the 'effect' (500 lifetimes as a fox) was
dismissed as soon as the old man heard the turning words. These words broke the
chain of cause-and-effect.<<<br/><br/>No, I didn't neglect anything. I said
that cause and effect is not fixed (determined) as demonstrated when the old
man was freed. <br/><br/>>>I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral
causation' but it is doubly problematic for me. <<<br/><br/>I'll address this
below.<br/><br/>>>One because the concept of causation (the chain of
cause-and-effect relationships) is illusory, <<<br/><br/>Call it illusory if
you like, but ignore it at your peril. I think there is an argument that
relationship between cause and effect is difficult to pin point (ala David
Hume), but that doesn't make it illusory. Also, remember cause and effect
doesn't always have to be a linea (as in Newtonian
physics), but can be complex.<br/><br/>>>and two because 'morality' is just
another one of those two-sided coins with 'moral' on one side and 'immoral' on
the other. <<<br/><br/>Again, not necessarily. A moral choice could be to give
money to a beggar on the street, but if I don't it doesn't make me
immoral.<br/><br/>>>In other words is a dualistic concept which makes it
illusory.<<<br/><br/>Answered.<br/><br/>>> Dogen didn't really use this
term,did he?<<<br/><br/>I got this from wiki. They're all Dogen's
words:<br/><br/>" I just expounded this dharma to guide people: Those who
practice wholesome actions rise and those who practice unwholesome actions
fall. You practice cause and harvest the effect….Thus I try to clarify, speak,
identify with, and practice this teaching of cause and effect. Do you all
understand it?[10]"<br/><br/>"Those who say "one does not fall into cause and
effect" deny causation, thereby falling into the lower realms. Those who
say "one cannot ignore cause and effect" clearly identify with cause and
effect. When people hear about identifying with cause and effect, they are
freed from the lower realms. Do not doubt this. Many of our contemporaries who
consider themselves students of Zen deny causation. How do we know? They
confuse "not ignoring" with "not falling into." Thus we know they deny cause
and effect.[12]".<br/><br/>"He notes that those who claim the monk "did not
become a fox because of past actions" are wrong: while some foxes are born with
the ability to remember their past lives, "such a capacity may be the result of
unwholesome action.."<br/><br/>>>You do attribute to Dogen the statement in
relationship to HYAKUJO AND THE FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable".
That's obviously not so because the turning word removed them.<<<br/><br/>The
turning word didn't extinguish cause and effect per se. It just freed him from
the effect of being a fox. As I said above,
cause and effect is not fixed. We're not prisoners to it - it can be
changed.<br/><br/>>>For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only
subject to cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, <<<br/><br/>So you're saying
you're not subject to cause and effect?? Please turn yourself into a beautiful
Thai princess and fly over here pronto!<br/><br/>>>and if he is fooled by them
he is not enlightened.<<<br/><br/>At last! That's something we can agree
on!<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
