#5! Edgar
On Jun 13, 2013, at 10:18 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Yeh, but who's counting?... > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad > Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:03:24 PM > > > Mike, > > > And your ego just commented on it for the 3rd or 4th time this morning... > > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:12 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it. >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad >> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM >> >> >> Mike, >> >> >> Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back >> rather than get out of the way... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> Bill!, >>> >>> And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all >>> going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony! >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Bill! <[email protected]>; >>> To: <[email protected]>; >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad >>> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM >>> >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could >>> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where >>> you needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with >>> your parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to >>> 'invent the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed >>> through teaching. >>> >>> It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and >>> shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you >>> but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when >>> you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on >>> your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning. >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>> > >>> > Bill, >>> > >>> > Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before >>> > reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as >>> > little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature. >>> > >>> > But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. >>> > You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is >>> > no longer relevant.... >>> > >>> > One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha >>> > Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself. >>> > >>> > Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need >>> > a teacher to start breathing when you were born? >>> > >>> > Edgar >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> > >>> > > Edgar, >>> > > >>> > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all >>> > > koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some >>> > > other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to >>> > > 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain >>> > > his/her verification that you have passed the koan. >>> > > >>> > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some >>> > > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it >>> > > was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to >>> > > prepare you for becoming a teacher. >>> > > >>> > > ...Bill! >>> > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > Bill, >>> > > > >>> > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha >>> > > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to >>> > > > point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its >>> > > > Buddha Nature. >>> > > > >>> > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to >>> > > > that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan.... even >>> > > > in its seemingly most insignificant aspect... >>> > > > >>> > > > Edgar >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > Edgar, >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I agree with Joe here. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically >>> > > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha >>> > > > > Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For >>> > > > > example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was >>> > > > > to "BRING me Mu" and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what >>> > > > > Joshu's answer 'Mu' means". >>> > > > > >>> > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, >>> > > > > there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, >>> > > > > although these discussions are usually focused on just what the >>> > > > > koan is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a >>> > > > > discussion on the meaning of the actual content. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was >>> > > > > with two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen >>> > > > > masters were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a >>> > > > > teacher:student relationship at one time. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ...Bill! >>> > > > > >>> > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Edgar, >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", >>> > > > > > makes a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. >>> > > > > > What are you all hung up about? >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; >>> > > > > > after a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was >>> > > > > > not koans. Either, "no need", or "no aptitude". >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > From my point of view, after a point, it was: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > "No need for gumdrops along the way". >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Hail! >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > I'm lucky to have had such a teacher. May you be lucky in this >>> > > > > > way, in some life. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > --Joe >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Joe, >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > The point of my reply to your post both of which you >>> > > > > > > obsessively snipped is this >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed >>> > > > > > > to believe in as an orthodox zennist. >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be >>> > > > > > > discarded in a satori. >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the >>> > > > > > > sound of one hand but could produce it yourself. >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill >>> > > > > > > does... >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it >>> > > > > > > actually expressed something but to discard it... >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Even Bill knows that... >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> > > >
