mike question...
how does a psychopath rise above ? how does a serial killer rise above? how does a war monger rise above?... too few buddhas and christs.. .. please note in spell check..you can write buddhas plural but not christs... comes up as spelling error... what does this mean? many Buddhas only one christ? merle Merle, Thank you for your thoughtful and considered reply. My comments are embedded below. >no i do not believe in original sin.... I'm relieved to hear it! But I sometimes feel you really focus on the negatives of humanity and come across as overly pessimistic and even cynical. I'm sure you're not, just a thread I pick up here. >i do not understand when you say "end our suffering?.".. Have you heard of Buddha's Four Noble Truths? The 3rd and 4th Noble Truth shows us that there is a way out of suffering and how to do it. >let me give you a concrete example.. there have been in australia recently 1 horrendous murder and rape and one attempted rape and murder been committed on young women and that being because the accused were released recently on parole... Yes, I'm all too aware of these recent crimes against women. >now i hear folk..saying how evil the 2 men are... one of them wants the death penalty...which is not available in australia...as he says if he is released he would kill again... i actually identify with their suffering..as much as i do with the victims Then that tells me that you have a good depth of compassion. I agree with you. We often hear about being One with life, nature, other people etc. But if that's the case then we are equally One with the murderers, rapists and child molesters. We vow to save "all" sentient beings. >in fact the suffering of the accused has me bowled over with compassion... of course folk will say but if it happened in your own backyard how would you feel and think?... that i cannot answer.. however either the prisoners are not getting any firm grounding in rehabilitation or they are beyond help. Not sure if everyone is beyond help, but us not giving up on them is just as important. Some people need to be locked up indefinitely for the community's safety and some people deserve to be locked up indefinitely for the crimes they've committed, but we can still feel compassion for them whilst also turning the key. >saying that is not anything to do with original sin..but the brain chemistry >gone haywire.. I think there are as many reasons why people commit crimes as there are criminal acts. Mostly bad choices and a lack of imagination and empathy (for the victim), I'd say. > then i think... we are all players on a stage as shakespeare once said...the > world is a theatre and we all have our parts to play.. how very sad to get to play a less noble creature As long as you don't mean 'fate'. We can change our "roles" in an instant if we choose to >i think there will be a golden era when we are all enlightened and all caring >and loving.."flower power and peace and love" We have that potential. >as jesus said in the gospel according to thomas.." the kingdom of heaven is >spread upon this earth and men do not see it"... I prefer his, "The kingdom of God is within you", but ultimately they both harmonise. >it's so so sad and makes me weep how lonely must they who have the roles to >play that are not so nice for what ever reason they are doing and being and >causing untold misery There's been a lot of work in neuro-science on the meaning of free-will and it has been argued that it doesn't exist. It's not found anywhere else in the universe, so humans are no exception. If you take an "evil" person as an example, you can see that prior conditions have an enormous impact on the choices they make. The work of Sam Harris in this area is worth reviewing. > how can we not feel compassion..this is an issue that will not settle with > me..i cannot make my way through this to understand the why...... It's tough. Just the other week that British soldier was slaughtered on a busy London street. My first reaction was anger and hatred. But that's the problem. I reacted to strong emotions. This is the root of suffering. >when you say no other organism has these gifts... how do you really know? our communication skills with other life forms on this planet are very dim... we seem to think and we believe we are the lords of the earth... Well, I certainly don't think we're the "lords of the earth"! I've no doubt that sometime in the future the world will "shake us off like a bad case of fleas" (George Carlin). I'd say we're more custodians than anything else. I think I'm on pretty safe ground to say that no other animal can transcend basic instincts though. We have an ability to be introspective and demonstrate empathy which is pretty rare in the animal kingdom. >the only lord of the earth is: mother nature..she runs the good ship >earth...we are at her mercy..and we treat her so poorly... Yes, I believe in Gaia too. This was my earlier point about entheogenic plants and shamans. I think Mother Nature has given us the means (said plants) to communicate with her. I think that it's no small coincidence that at this time of destruction of the forests, there is a plant (ayahuasca) coming from the Amazon that teaches people how to respect and live in harmony with Her. >for this we will pay with our own destruction.. Everything is impermanent. Even us. >from these ashes there will rise those organisms that you so kindly refer to >as not... can i be so bold as to say... do not have our extraordinary gifts?... That may well be true. But those organisms will also have to go thru the long process of evolution before they become as self-aware of their place in the universe as us. Of course, their process of evolution might also take them on a completely different path of awareness. But I believe the universe is intelligent and evolution leads to it getting to know itself. It's taken itself 14 billion years, but here we are discussing such things. That's pretty damn amazing to me! >we are one with those organisms..we are those organisms..we were never >anything else We are, yes. But we've also evolved differently. >ultimate reality is the understanding that all is one..there is no separate, >no other... >ONE Ultimate reality can be experienced, but not understood. But I know where you're coming from : ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <[email protected]>; To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; Subject: Re: [Zen] no sound is heard what so ever Sent: Fri, Jun 21, 2013 4:36:44 AM mike.. no i do not believe in original sin.... i do not understand when you say "end our suffering?.".. let me give you a concrete example.. there have been in australia recently 1 horrendous murder and rape and one attempted rape and murder been committed on young women and that being because the accused were released recently on parole... now i hear folk..saying how evil the 2 men are... one of them wants the death penalty...which is not available in australia...as he says if he is released he would kill again... i actually identify with their suffering..as much as i do with the victims in fact the suffering of the accused has me bowled over with compassion... of course folk will say but if it happened in your own backyard how would you feel and think?... that i cannot answer.. however either the prisoners are not getting any firm grounding in rehabilitation or they are beyond help. saying that is not anything to do with original sin..but the brain chemistry gone haywire.. then i think... we are all players on a stage as shakespeare once said...the world is a theatre and we all have our parts to play.. how very sad to get to play a less noble creature perhaps i think there will be a golden era when we are all enlightened and all caring and loving.."flower power and peace and love" as jesus said in the gospel according to thomas.." the kingdom of heaven is spread upon this earth and men do not see it"... it's so so sad and makes me weep how lonely must they who have the roles to play that are not so nice for what ever reason they are doing and being and causing untold misery how can we not feel compassion..this is an issue that will not settle with me..i cannot make my way through this to understand the why...... when you say no other organism has these gifts... how do you really know? our communication skills with other life forms on this planet are very dim... we seem to think and we believe we are the lords of the earth... the only lord of the earth is: mother nature..she runs the good ship earth...we are at her mercy..and we treat her so poorly... for this we will pay with our own destruction.. from these ashes there will rise those organisms that you so kindly refer to as not... can i be so bold as to say... do not have our extraordinary gifts?... we are one with those organisms..we are those organisms..we were never anything else ultimate reality is the understanding that all is one..there is no separate, no other... ONE merle Merle, I sometimes wonder if your view of humans is influenced by your personality or your exposure to Christian-Judaeo thinking. It certainly seems in accord with ideas like Original Sin! I see things differently. Those of us alive right now 'owe' it to the fact that every single one of our ancestors survived to reproductive age and procreated. We also can see our place in the universe and our origins. We have been born in a time where there is a teaching (Dharma) that shows us how we can experience ultimate reality and end our suffering. No other organism has these 'gifts'. How extraordinary and lucky we are! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <[email protected]>; To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; Subject: [Zen] no sound is heard what so ever Sent: Thu, Jun 20, 2013 11:09:08 PM hi joe... i thought as much when i googled..thank you for this clarification... the night sky is certainly filled with awe and wonder... last night on telly a short doc on the voyage 2..i presume you know of this...it is breaking through the magnetic field...you must bear with me..i am a science ignoramus... and the voyage 2 going into the beyond the beyond so to speak.... it is really amazing this earth... here we all are on this ball and out there is this vast endless universe if not universes... seemingly may i suggest we are "orphans"... where are the other life forms?... certainly gives us food for thought and makes for realisation that we are but as individuals smaller than a grain of sand.. in fact as individuals we are invisible... all the huffing and puffing we carry on as individuals.. puffing out chests out and bursting with the song..."here i am"..is not even a whisper in the universe... no sound is heard what so ever... merle Merle, Yes, Parkes is an extremely famous and important RADIO-observatory, where a lot of radio-astronomy was invented after World War II, using military-surplus radar instrumentation, and making improvements on it (especially on the Receivers). Radio-astronomy was my first specialty in my career, so I look to Parkes as one would look to, say, White Sands, or Cape Kennedy for the development of rocketry after the War. It is that important. Many astronomical discoveries were made there. But it is not an Optical observatory. Often, the needs (of siting) of a radio observatory are at cross purposes with those of an optical observatory. A rad. obs. wants to be LOW, where its antennas can be shielded from artificial radio signals from radio and TV, etc., transmitters. An optical observatory wants to be HIGH, where it can be above air and dust and lights, and air currents that disrupt the wave-front of the light. Parkes is no good for my current work as an optical observer, and was no good for my past work in radio, because it is too LOW. We chose to site our instrument in Chile because it is high and dry there, and our radio waves of choice are so short (microwaves) that water vapor and clouds DO disrupt them. Chile was / is ideal. There are places in Chile that make the Nullarbor Plain of Australia look like the Garden of Eden! I loved getting to know the stars of the South, Merle. It was like starting over. I've had several lifetimes, already. And they say there's no such thing as Reincarnation! ;-) --Joe > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > joe... i believe their is an observatory out at parkes..nsw..i'll check >net..yes i have walked to top of mount k ... it's a very easy "stroll" > joe i know nothing about stars... sorry... on a clear night yes you can see > all..it's gorgeous.....no we do not get glow of sydney..yes it is pitch > black...sydney you see the lights of city in the very very way off > distance... cheers merle
