Edgar, I am holding up my hand but all you see are five fingers.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Merle, > > Yes, I agree. Trying to discuss this with Bill who is convinced you and I and > everyone else is a figment of his imagination is a waste of time... > > Going out to feed my fox. He, at least, knows I am real! > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > edgar and bill..you are playing mind games...and splitting hairs...open up > > your heart and breathe the breath...merle > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > First of all I never said "all is monistic experience". 'All', if you mean > > reality, is just chaos. > > > > Sentient beings have the ability to experience reality directly, and that > > experience is monistic. It is called Buddha Nature. > > > > Humans are sentient and also have an intellect. This is just my guess, but > > I assume the human intellect and its ability to create dualism/pluralism is > > a product of evolution. > > > > I've written about that in the article entitled THE ORIGIN OF THE ILLUSION > > OF SELF. I have referenced that on this forum before. It's only about one > > page long. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > That doesn't cut it. Where does the human intellect come from if all is > > > monistic experience? > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > To answer you question the delusion of self arises in the intellect. > > > > > > > > The human intellect (and you can assume that resides in the brain if > > > > you want) creates the delusion of dualism/pluralism. That's it's job. I > > > > can speculate 'why' it does this but have no idea 'how' and I don't see > > > > 'how' as important. > > > > > > > > Once the delusion of dualism/pluralism arises a plethora of delusions > > > > quickly follow the most problematic of which (IMO)is the delusion of a > > > > separate self. > > > > > > > > These delusions often obscure experience. > > > > > > > > Zen practice first assists you in suspending the creation of delusions > > > > by halting the activity of the intellect. When that happens you have an > > > > opportunity to experience (Buddha Nature). After that zen practice > > > > helps you to reintroduce the activities of your intellect (delusions) > > > > and balance them with experience (Buddha Nature). > > > > > > > > That's it. That's all it is. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > How can perception of a self in a brain even arise is there is really > > > > > just pure experience absent any experiencer? > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it can't.... > > > > > > > > > > For perception and illusion to arise there must be something for it > > > > > to arise IN. > > > > > > > > > > Again your view is inconsistent... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:07 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > Good question! > > > > > > > > > > > > Experience (as I define it - monistic) is just experience - Just > > > > > > THIS! Since it is monistic there is not a pluralism of me, you, the > > > > > > dog, the rabbit, etc... > > > > > > > > > > > > Perception is dualistic/pluralistic. Each intellect that creates > > > > > > the delusion of dualism/pluralism creates its own perception. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then 'whose' experience is it? And whose perception is it that > > > > > > > arises in "your" mind if not your self's? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand why you think my POV (and maybe the Buddhist/zen > > > > > > > > POV also) is 'solipsism', but there is an importance difference > > > > > > > > which you are ignoring. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Solipsism' in every definition I've read includes a focus on a > > > > > > > > belief in a 'self', in fact an exclusive belief in 'self'. Here > > > > > > > > is just one example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own > > > > > > > > modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; > > > > > > > > also: extreme ." - Merriam-Webster Online > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My POV (and what I believe to be the POV of all zen teachings) > > > > > > > > is the 'self' is delusive. My POV does not focus on the 'self' > > > > > > > > and claim it is the only existent thing. My POV focuses on > > > > > > > > experience (sensory, monisitic) and denies the existence of a > > > > > > > > 'self' - except as a delusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd be willing to read other definitions of 'solipsism' or hear > > > > > > > > your own definition that convinces you that the gist of what > > > > > > > > I've been saying is an example of 'solipsism'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS, I agree it is the "Buddhist line" that I've been > > > > > > > > > defending against Bill's solipsism ad infinitum.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:23 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When have you ever said that?? Btw, ego has nothing to do > > > > > > > > > > with my stance. I've been stating the Buddhist line ever > > > > > > > > > > since I've been here and you've just about disagreed with > > > > > > > > > > everything I've ever said (or just got basic Buddhist > > > > > > > > > > principles plain wrong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen ; > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" > > > > > > > > > > ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:28:51 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny. That's exactly what I said so why are you > > > > > > > > > > "completely disagreeing with me"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect just because your ego insists you have to > > > > > > > > > > preserve itself? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 8:26 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> I think you'll find that I've been arguing here that "just > > > > > > > > > >> THIS!" isn't really the full picture. But anyway, I > > > > > > > > > >> completely disagree with you. Yes, there is an ultimate > > > > > > > > > >> reality, but that reality can only be known subjectively. > > > > > > > > > >> That's why my iPad creates sensations for me, but > > > > > > > > > >> absolutely none for you. This is why Buddha taught that > > > > > > > > > >> reality can only be known within "this fathom long body". > > > > > > > > > >> If someone shows Dave and John a picture of a nude woman > > > > > > > > > >> they will both have totally different reactions to it > > > > > > > > > >> depending on a multitude of personal factors. The photo > > > > > > > > > >> stays the same, but the reactions are what counts. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Mike > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> From: Edgar Owen ; > > > > > > > > > >> To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:09:41 PM > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Mike, > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> That is your local perception of reality. Obviously you > > > > > > > > > >> and I perceive reality quite differently. But it's the > > > > > > > > > >> same reality we both perceive.... > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> You can't just define your own reality. That leads to all > > > > > > > > > >> sorts of inconsistencies and delusions... > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> That's another reason that Bill and your "just this" just > > > > > > > > > >> doesn't cut it. All experience is always mediated and > > > > > > > > > >> processed by one's internal biological and cognitive > > > > > > > > > >> structure. Thinking that "just this" is somehow direct > > > > > > > > > >> perception of actual external reality is just not true. > > > > > > > > > >> That's exhaustively proven biological and physical fact. > > > > > > > > > >> Doesn't matter how enlightened you may or may not be... > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:55 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> How about a bat or an ant? Plus, my reality is different > > > > > > > > > >>> to yours. This iPad in front of me creates many > > > > > > > > > >>> sensations and perceptions, yet for you it doesn't exist. > > > > > > > > > >>> But my previous point is that you can't know if something > > > > > > > > > >>> is what you perceive it to be. The perception is more > > > > > > > > > >>> crucial than the apparent reality of what it is (eg the > > > > > > > > > >>> snake and rope). > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Mike > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> From: Edgar Owen ; > > > > > > > > > >>> To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >>> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:35:42 AM > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Mike, > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> There is no "our reality". There is only one reality. You > > > > > > > > > >>> can't define reality as YOU like. It is self defining... > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 8:14 PM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> You still haven't answered. You seem to be far more > > > > > > > > > >>>> interested in metaphysical entanglements than reality. > > > > > > > > > >>>> Like I said previously, reality has many definitions, > > > > > > > > > >>>> but the one that counts is the one that affects our > > > > > > > > > >>>> mental processes and how we respond to them. Trying to > > > > > > > > > >>>> figure out whether an external object is what you think > > > > > > > > > >>>> it is is beside the point because It's impossible to > > > > > > > > > >>>> determine in all cases. However, how you react is real > > > > > > > > > >>>> in 100% of cases and how you react will determine > > > > > > > > > >>>> whether you suffer, or not, from that reaction. This is > > > > > > > > > >>>> our reality. > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Mike > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> From: uerusuboyo@ ; > > > > > > > > > >>>> To: zen group [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >>>> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >>>> Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:32:37 AM > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say > > > > > > > > > >>>> here. How would I know if it's a snake and not a piece > > > > > > > > > >>>> of rope - especially if my reaction was to avoid it > > > > > > > > > >>>> believing it to be poisonous? What if i killed it > > > > > > > > > >>>> believing it was a snake I believed to be poisonous, but > > > > > > > > > >>>> it turned out to be someone's harmless pet snake? Again, > > > > > > > > > >>>> my reactions are central - not what it actually is - if > > > > > > > > > >>>> that is all I have to go on at that time. They're all I > > > > > > > > > >>>> have 'control' over. It's really not a difficult point > > > > > > > > > >>>> to grasp. > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Mike > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> From: yonyonson@ ; > > > > > > > > > >>>> To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >>>> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 10:39:57 PM > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> you could try that, but it'd just be more of the same. > > > > > > > > > >>>> 10,000 things and counting... > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Hong > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Mike, > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> OK, I finally managed to pick myself up off the floor! > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> What difference does it make?????? > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> OK, I hope I really have managed to stop laughing > > > > > > > > > >>>> now..... > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Try stepping on a piece of rope and then a rattlesnake > > > > > > > > > >>>> and maybe, just maybe, you might understand the > > > > > > > > > >>>> difference! > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Jeeeez.... > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:44 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make > > > > > > > > > >>>>> whether it's a snake or a piece of rope if thats what I > > > > > > > > > >>>>> sincerely perceive at the time? It's my reaction that > > > > > > > > > >>>>> is important. > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Mike > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> From: Edgar Owen ; > > > > > > > > > >>>>> To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >>>>> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:37 PM > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Mike, > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just > > > > > > > > > >>>>> this" at night would have been the snake that was > > > > > > > > > >>>>> really a piece of rope! > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can > > > > > > > > > >>>>> imagine Bill at the magic show yelling "just this" as > > > > > > > > > >>>>> every illusion is performed believing they are all real > > > > > > > > > >>>>> because they are his direct experience! > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is > > > > > > > > > >>>>> reality you mistake illusion for reality..... In the > > > > > > > > > >>>>> cases above it's obvious, but if you understand the > > > > > > > > > >>>>> biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY > > > > > > > > > >>>>> TIME.... > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> There many gold standards for what reality is, but > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> surely what we experience as humans is all we have to > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> go on? If I see a snake at night, how I react at that > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> time is far more important than in the morning > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> realising it was just a piece of old rope. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Mike > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen ; > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Bill, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> The point is that Bill's "just this" is something > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> produced by complex sensory and cognitive processes. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> It does NOT correspond to raw reality as he would have > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> of processes. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> ILLUSION mistaken for reality".... > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> True you don't experience reality like this. Because > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> you ARE NOT EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> have to understand the endocrine system to take a pee? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Mike > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> From: Edgar Owen ; > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> To: [email protected]; > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> face" ... but how plain is that? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bill, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> involved. Raw sensory experience which occurs > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> separately in each different sense organ. There is > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> perception in the optic lobes, 3rd the brain itself > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> makes what is perceived into objects in the context > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> of one's internal model of reality. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the way biology actually works... > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> experience only from a pluralistic POV. From a > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> pluralistic POV there is a distinction between > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> monistic POV there is no distinction. It's just > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> experience. Experience is only separated into the > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> different senses when pluralism arises along with > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> perception. It's then that you see, hear, taste, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> smell and touch. Before pluralism there is just > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> experience - Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> (worse or better - like eyesight or hearing) than > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> yours. For example blurry vision doesn't produce a > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> different experience than clear vision. The vision > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> being blurry or clear is a perception, not an > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> experience. The same goes for vision and touch. If a > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> person is blind but can feel then they are sentient > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> and do experience; BUT a blind person or deaf person > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> does not have the same perception as a person who > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> sees and hears well. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > So why is the experience of you different from > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > someone who needs glasses, or a blind person? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > reality? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > different just thises? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > not dependent upon eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > It is however dependent upon what we call > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > senses. If you were not sentient then you could > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > not experience and would have no awareness. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > There would be nothing. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Panda, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > or without glasses? With or without corneas? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > With or without eyes? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > light images of 'things'.... > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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