--- Just thought I'd respond to a few points made about my last entry. I will not comment on others opinions as I do not want to speak for them.
1) In my comment that suffering is part of the life experience, I simply mean that everything in life is composed of yin and yang, good and bad, and, consequently, are neither. 2)I stated that I believe in being open to all life experiences.What this means to me is to not retreat from things that enter your life. Obviously, some filtering is required; otherwise, yes, we would be overwhelmed, especially in the modern age with the amount of information out there. Maybe I could explain it like this: Imagine life as a huge buffet. You may like the BBQ chicken, but if that's all you ever eat, you'll never try the couscous, the dim sum, the osso bucco. In the end, you may end up being an expert on BBQ chicken, but you'll know nothing else of what the world has to offer. I feel that taking part in the experiences of life broadens the understanding of life, and then the understanding of self. As far as the person who said living in the now is overrated, I ask, what else is there? The past is a memory, and the future is only speculation; neither truly exist, except in our minds. 3)I fear you may be missing my point on knowing yourself. I certainly don't mean you should torture yourself to increase your tolerence for pain on any level. I simply mean what I said. Knowing yourself, nothing can make you falter. If I may use a personal example. I live in Provincetown, MA., which is considered the east gay capitol. I am a heterosexual. When I was with my ex fiance, gay men would go to her on a constant basis and tell her I was gay, I'm in the closet, etc., like a bunch of little yap dogs. Then, every time, I would then spend hours convincing her I wasn't. When I would go out with my gay friends when I was single, they would activly do things to "cockblock" my efforts with females. Let them run their mouths and waste oxygen, it never made me question my sexuality. And before you revert back to point #2, I did say some filtering is required. Chopping off one's own hand is also a life experience, doesn't mean I have to do it to know it's not for me. Sometimes the mental image is enough. 4) You are very right in your statement about control. It is not the endgame by any means. But sometimes, in the course of self preservation, it is a nessecery tool. If you drive your car and don't put your hands on the wheel, inevitably, you will crash. If we chose to live in the modern world I don't feel that we always can, or should, live on the spiritual plane. Plenty of people would view it as weakness and seek to exploit it. Sometimes you have to get muddy and bloody. Otherwise the only option is to live completly away from other humans, or, as I like to say, pull a Thoreau. In closing, I would like to thank you for your comments. If I may paraphrase Montaigne, he who challenges me, enriches me. Guy [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Newman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Greetings All, lovely saying this, I am a 'newbe' too. Love the rhetoric > in the below two posts ergo I will toss in my one cent if that's ok.. > > >> There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. < > > > > > > but to me suffering is part of the life > > experience. > > sad but true, I agree, sort of seems silly the combination of brilliance > we seem to possess in so many ways as if we were put together by some > mad genius who did so much then got tired and walked away or something.. > the suffering and pain and sickness etc. of course we are able to see it > as a good thing too as in need the clouds to have the rainbows, yet.. > > > From my studies in Buddhism, I've learned to be open to all > > experiences in life; > > what does that mean to you? > > in nyc where I live that seems akin to sensory suicide, selective > perception puts up needed walls on the doors of perception.. Otherwise > I've read we'd instantly go insane with all senses really experience > everything going on.. On a sidenote, Wired had a great article way back > about a guy who lived completely in the present for a year because of > psychological necessity (he had convinced himself he was to die shortly) > and in the end that person felt life was sort of shallow without the > fullness of reflection on his past, and the hope and temporal aliveness > the sense of a future gave him.. he thought the NOW was greatly > overated. hmm.. > > > > the key is being centered, knowing yourself. If you understand your > > own being, the winds of life can blow as hard as they want, you will > > not be moved. > > sounds very stoic, ..once I looked at a book by a 1950's hypnotist who > advised pricking onself with pins to gradually toughen our resolve in > the face of pain, to change the agony of suffering to the pure sensation > of pain.. In a way this reminds me of the saying, there's nothing like a > good downward comparison.. having or developing the fortitude and > hardiness to withstand the slings and arrows is intense detachment I > guess, ergo the stability and centeredness attached to those > powers is significant. > > > I see so many people that when something happens, they > > have an immediate emotional reaction; however, if they viewed it > > from a detached(read objective) perspective, they would understand > > the situation as it truly is and thereby be able to control it. > > exactly. Yet is control the endgame of us irrational beings? The main > focus of a prison is control as well.. > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > but seriously, who is alex? > > >> > Isnt the point of practice is not to eliminate > >> > suffering but know that no matter what suffering is > >> > there , its a part of life ??Only when you accept > >> > that fact do you achieve freedom by being detached > >> > to whatever comes up in your mind that causes > >> > suffering . > > are you saying.. we suffer (aixo era y no era/ it simultaneously is and > is not so) and from this 'reality' we become free in our acceptance of > 'it'.. that is, that the suffering is a direct result of nonacceptance > of it? > > >> This harkens back to what Diana said several days ago-- she observed > >> that suffering is there only if we > >> take it seriously. > > isn't this a contradiction of terms, isn't suffering inherently taken > seriously, otherwise it wouldn't be suffering would it? hmmm.. > > >> Which begs the question: if suffering is not taken seriously, does it > >> then qualify to be taken as 'suffering'? > > a tree is the forest argument it seems.. > > > It is of crucial importance to come to terms with the fact that > > suffering can indeed be eliminated. > > Is that the case with you? I think its a more or less thing.. I know of > no nonsufferers, only people who clain so.. of which there is no > shortage, but always, on closer examination, their woes spring forth.. > Buddha is the ideal of this to me. > > >> Buddhahood is not some sort of a truce with the world. It is not a > >> philosophical resignation to the sad but inevitable facts of life. > >> Buddhahod is complete > >> elimination of any possiblity of pain. > > hmmm this seems a very idealistic rendering of Buddhism to me, as if it > is an opiate supreme.. how does such a Boddhahod work in your view here? > can you describe what consciousness is like to such an enlightened one? > > >> > This is my impression but I find it hard > >> > to remain detached ALL the time . What are other > >> > thoughts on this ...Is it really attainable to > >> > become detached and act as a witness to what is > >> > going on around you ?I try but it doesnt always work > > Yes, I think not. If you are then you are some magical enlightned > wizard. Like Buddha.. > > >> > for me --Allison > > me too Alison.. > > >> It is definitelly possible. If it weren't, what good > >> would the practice be? > > I would say it is good because it encourages less suffering through less > attachment, yet the ideal of total detachment is just that, an ideal. > > maaythforceBwithya!, dvnyc > > "Do be do be do be, doobee doobee doo" -K.Vonnegut ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WwRTUD/SOnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
