It would be nice also if people clipped their email responses so the whole of the letter doesn't appear for us lazy cellphoners to scroll endlessly through. Good karma too. Oh yeah, and no cursing.
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 1:54am, [email protected] wrote: > > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 2. Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 3. Re: Re: The nature of the mind > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 4. Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 5. Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 6. Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 7. Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 8. Re: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 9. Re: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 10. RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: "Dana Nourie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 11. Re: Digest Number 1031/trees in the forest and or the mind.. > From: David Newman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 12. RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 13. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 14. Re: The nature of the mind/boundries > From: "rubiolio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 15. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 16. Re: The nature of the mind/boundries > From: "rubiolio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 17. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 18. Re: The nature of the mind/boundries > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 19. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 20. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 21. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 22. Re: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 23. Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 24. Re: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > 25. Re: too much > From: "mackkup" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:45:11 -0500 > From: Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: what exactly is karma, anyway > > > i see this often: > > "No karma was produced during the composition of this letter". > > one question i have is: what exactly does this mean. > > another question i have is: regardless of whether karma is produced by > composing the letter, is karma produced by SENDING the letter? > > another question is: does understanding (or "comprehending") the > nature of karma further our practice? > > these are honest questions & not asked with the intent of being snarky. > > meanwhile i will do some more reading about karma too. > > - *lk > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:26:00 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > --- Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> i see this often: >> >> "No karma was produced during the composition of >> this letter". >> >> one question i have is: what exactly does this mean. >> >> another question i have is: regardless of whether >> karma is produced by >> composing the letter, is karma produced by SENDING >> the letter? >> >> another question is: does understanding (or >> "comprehending") the >> nature of karma further our practice? >> >> these are honest questions & not asked with the >> intent of being snarky. >> >> meanwhile i will do some more reading about karma >> too. > > Lemme step into this pile of shit again... > > I have already explained these issues not that long > ago, but you may have not read them. I'll repeat here > what I can fit in a nutshell, and then I'll duck: > > The Buddha himself was often asked the same questions. > What is karma? Please explain karma to me, o Mighty > One! > > Typically, the Buddha would opt to remain silent to > such questions. Every now and then, he would retort > that it would absolutely not be possible for him to > explain what karma is to mere mortals. He would then > add: "I can't explain it to you, but I can tell you > one thing about karma -- it works!" > > For us, serious Buddhist practitioners, there is no > denying that karma works. Same as there is no denying > that fire burns us. But the question is: how does > karma work? > > Simply put, the Buddhist doctrine teaches that every > act, performed under the auspices of substantiality, > that is to say under the belief that there is a > substantial self which is separate and unique, that > very act must bear fruit. In other words, it would not > be possible in the Buddhist universe for an act to > remain 'unnoticed'. > > In addition to the above 'iron' dictum, another 'iron' > dictum is that only the very person who is under the > delusion of performing an act will eventually taste > the fruit of that act. This means that there is no way > for someone to wiggle out, to avoid experiencing the > consequences of one's actions. > > And finaly the third corollary of the doctrine of > karma is that it would be absolutely impossible for > someone else to taste the consequences of another > person's actions. This means that, as long as we > believe we are separate, unique 'persons', we will be > forced to experience and taste the fruits of our > previous actions. We cannot 'offload' those > consequences onto others. Jesus cannot help us here. > > This simple principle, called karma, ensures that we > live in a full blown ethical world. If this principle > didn't apply, people would grow either complacent or > desperate. If practitioners thought that regardless of > what they do, things are either predetermined or > chaotical, they wouldn't be able to find the firm > ground from where to base their practice. Only this > law of karma insures that we are given ample > motivation to practice and are given the chance to > transform the world. > > Thus, understanding this principle is very useful, as > it puts our mind at ease and makes it very clear to us > that only we ourselves can do something to abolish > ours, as well as others' suffering. As such, this > principle is absolutely indispensable in the serious > Buddhist practice. > > Alex > > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:35:32 -0800 (PST) > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Re: The nature of the mind > > We Delineate With Boundries In Order To Communicate, > But Also To Eat, Eliminate, And Seek Shelter. In Short > To Survive. Thus To Just Stop Communicating Is Not An > Answer Either. We Can Only Survive In A Relative > Universe. You Will Not Live To Be A Buddha If You Do > Not Divide And Create Bounderies, Neither Would Have > Gautama. We Of Course Would Have Never Heard Of It > Without An Ability To Communicate. Surely Pretending > There Is Nothing To Eat, Or That There Is No Thing > That Needs To Eat Was Not What The Buddha Meant, Or > Why Did He Go Out Each Day To Beg For Food? If The Way > To End Suffering Is To Not Think In Dualistic > Terms.... To Stop Concious Thought.... That Is All > Dualistic As Well, Why Did He Not Just Teach His > Followers To Stop Eating Till They Stopped Thinking? > If There Is No One To Eat, And Nothing Real That Can > Be Eaten, Then Why Did The Buddha Take Up His Bowl And > Beg For Food?..... In The Very Way The Buddha Lived, > Every Morning He Pointed Out The Idea There Is No You > Is Not His Teaching. > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> --- Jill Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > why is it that we insist on delineating things > with >> > boundaries? >> >> In order for you to formulate the above question, > you >> had yourself to delineate things with boundaries. > So, >> any time we wish to communicate with others, we have >> no other recourse but to delineate things with >> boundaries. >> >> > isn't the notion of "form is emptyness & emptyness >> > is form" telling us >> > there are no boundaries? >> >> No it's not. Boundaries are there, and they are to > be >> used as stepping stones in our climb out of the pit > of >> constant pain. The person who realizes how to do > that >> realizes that the boundaries that delineate forms > are >> nothing but the very emptiness that frees and >> liberates us from any possibility of pain. >> >> Alex >> >> >> No karma was produced during the composition of this > letter >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:38:10 -0500 > From: Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > > alex, i asked what does THIS mean: > >> "No karma was produced during the composition of >> this letter". > > - elk > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:28:24 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > --- Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> alex, i asked what does THIS mean: >> >> > "No karma was produced during the composition of >> > this letter". > > It means that the person who had composed that letter > was not besotted with substantiality while composing > it, and consequently his acts didn't result in any > karma being produced. > > Alex > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:47:10 -0500 > From: Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > >>> It means that the person who had composed that letter >>> was not besotted with substantiality while composing >>> it, and consequently his acts didn't result in any >>> karma being produced. > > does this apply to all other actions that such a person does? i.e., > if such a one composing a letter with no karmic consequences were to > *send* the letter, would the sending itself produce no karma? > > - elk > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:00:33 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > --- Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> It means that the person who had composed that >> letter >> >> was not besotted with substantiality while >> composing >> >> it, and consequently his acts didn't result in >> any >> >> karma being produced. >> >> does this apply to all other actions that such a >> person does? i.e., >> if such a one composing a letter with no karmic >> consequences were to >> *send* the letter, would the sending itself produce >> no karma? > > A person who is besotted with substantiality produces > karma in three ways: > > a. by generating thoughts > b. by generating speech > c. by generating deeds/actions > > Anything such a person does produces karma. That > person cannot wiggle out of producing karma in any > way; he is destined to keep producing karma by > engaging in thinking, by engaging in speaking, by > engaging in doing. Only by waking up from the dream of > substantiality can that person cease to produce karma. > This is exactly what happened to Shakyamuni Buddha one > early morn under the boddhi tree. > > If a person is to compose a leter while being free > from the oppression of the illusion of substantiality, > such person would not generate karma. By the same > token, if that same person were to send that letter, > no karma would be produced either, as that person is > free from the illusion of substantiality. And so > forth. > > Alex > > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:00:38 -0800 (PST) > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > Hmm. .... This From The Rush Limbaugh School Of > Buddhism? Declare Yourself To Be Excellence In > Broadcasting And Then Any Thing You Say Has To Be > Excellent. Again The Question Become Since The > Definition Of Besotted Is To Be Fooled .... You Can > Never Be Sure You Are Not Besotted.... No One Who Is > Besotted Thinks They Are Besotted. This Being The > Case, How Can Any One Judge Their Own Level Of > Intoxication? How Could You Know No Karma Is Being > Generated By A Post You Write? Handy But Dangerous To > Declare Yourself Sober....especially When You Spend > All Day Drinking. > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> --- Infernal Elk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> > >> > >> It means that the person who had composed that >> > letter >> > >> was not besotted with substantiality while >> > composing >> > >> it, and consequently his acts didn't result in >> > any >> > >> karma being produced. >> > >> > does this apply to all other actions that such a >> > person does? i.e., >> > if such a one composing a letter with no karmic >> > consequences were to >> > *send* the letter, would the sending itself > produce >> > no karma? >> >> A person who is besotted with substantiality > produces >> karma in three ways: >> >> a. by generating thoughts >> b. by generating speech >> c. by generating deeds/actions >> >> Anything such a person does produces karma. That >> person cannot wiggle out of producing karma in any >> way; he is destined to keep producing karma by >> engaging in thinking, by engaging in speaking, by >> engaging in doing. Only by waking up from the dream > of >> substantiality can that person cease to produce > karma. >> This is exactly what happened to Shakyamuni Buddha > one >> early morn under the boddhi tree. >> >> If a person is to compose a leter while being free >> from the oppression of the illusion of > substantiality, >> such person would not generate karma. By the same >> token, if that same person were to send that letter, >> no karma would be produced either, as that person is >> free from the illusion of substantiality. And so >> forth. >> >> Alex >> >> >> No karma was produced during the composition of this > letter >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:18:02 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > --- kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Hmm. .... This From The Rush Limbaugh School Of >> Buddhism? > > Hahaha, good one! > >> Declare Yourself To Be Excellence In >> Broadcasting And Then Any Thing You Say Has To Be >> Excellent. Again The Question Become Since The >> Definition Of Besotted Is To Be Fooled .... You Can >> Never Be Sure You Are Not Besotted.... No One Who Is >> Besotted Thinks They Are Besotted. This Being The >> Case, How Can Any One Judge Their Own Level Of >> Intoxication? How Could You Know No Karma Is Being >> Generated By A Post You Write? Handy But Dangerous >> To >> Declare Yourself Sober....especially When You Spend >> All Day Drinking. > > You're absolutely right. Chalk it under 'wishful > thinking'. I can guarantee you that a shitload of > karma gets generated while I'm composing these > letters. > > But, one has the right to daydream, doesn't one? > > Alex > > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:32:23 -0800 > From: "Dana Nourie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) Hmmm. > > Dana Nourie: http://www.kelpcritter.com > > "You cannot prevent the birds of sadness from passing over your head, > but you can prevent them from nesting in your hair." > Swedish proverb > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Bunard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 3:18 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Re: [Zen] what exactly is karma, anyway >> >> >> --- kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > Hmm. .... This From The Rush Limbaugh School Of Buddhism? >> >> Hahaha, good one! >> >> > Declare Yourself To Be Excellence In >> > Broadcasting And Then Any Thing You Say Has To Be >> Excellent. Again The >> > Question Become Since The Definition Of Besotted Is To Be >> Fooled .... >> > You Can Never Be Sure You Are Not Besotted.... No One Who >> Is Besotted >> > Thinks They Are Besotted. This Being The Case, How Can Any >> One Judge >> > Their Own Level Of Intoxication? How Could You Know No >> Karma Is Being >> > Generated By A Post You Write? Handy But Dangerous To >> Declare Yourself >> > Sober....especially When You Spend All Day Drinking. >> >> You're absolutely right. Chalk it under 'wishful thinking'. I >> can guarantee you that a shitload of karma gets generated >> while I'm composing these letters. >> >> But, one has the right to daydream, doesn't one? >> >> Alex >> >> >> No karma was produced during the composition of this letter >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ >> >> >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> --------------------~--> >> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? >> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! >> http://us.click.yahoo.com/WwRTUD/SOnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------~-> >> >> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right >> Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right >> Concentration, Right Livelihood >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 1.1008 (20050225) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.nod32.com >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:44:33 -0500 > From: David Newman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Digest Number 1031/trees in the forest and or the mind.. > > > Welcome Jill, > > Words words, as flocks of birds... Who even knows what Is, is. Welcome > to this crazy if occasionally quarrelsome forum for Zen thinking. I am > pretty new too. A lot of great ideas pass by, as well as the debris on > the river too.. One thing you'll see quick is that there are a lot of > opinions on Zen doctrines, and that there are endless tributaries that > people go down. I am of the no doubt simplistic school of Zen people, > where mindfulness, or just focussing on.. what is, is really where > 'liberation' takes place. To me the dogma sounds like a lot of > psychobabble, although interesting at times.. I guess that may change > if > and when I understand what some or the more schooled members are > talking > about. > > dave > >> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:26:21 -0000 >> From: "Jill Harrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: The nature of the mind >> >> >> >>> location of the mind (if there is something, it must >>> be located somewhere). >> >> why is it that we insist on delineating things with boundaries? >> isn't the notion of "form is emptyness & emptyness is form" telling us >> there are no boundaries? >> >> this boundary-lessness is not just the interdependence of all physical >> form - but also energy (which science tells us is just part of a >> continuum with matter anyway), including life energy, which flows thru >> everything without boundary. it's not that there is 'nothingness' - >> it's just that there is no real delineation of any distinct thing in >> particular. >> >> i've been thinking about religion lately - mostly in relation to our >> inability to get along (peace, justice & politics are big problems for >> me) & trying to decide what _is_ religion? humans have such a strong >> inclination to investigate, understand & build (beautiful) paradigms >> to describe the universe & our relationship to it. i guess i'm >> imagining "beautiful" here in the sense that einstein might have >> experienced when he was striving for a 'unified theory'. >> >> it seems as if there are 2 distinct ways in which we investigate our >> world - 1) the description of phenomena from a distinctly seperate >> point of view (scientific examination) & 2) a direct experiential >> integration with the world (most religions & even the 12 step programs >> all speak of surrendering to that 'higher power' - or allowing god to >> manifest thru us - being 'a perfect instrument of thy peace' sort of >> experience). >> >> if the religious experience is this practice of integrative direct >> experience of the world - allowing god (or the world) to manifest >> through us most perfectly (which i imagine the meditation practice to >> be about), then how can we improve our ability to share/teach this >> experience (or at the very least not fight over it). we have a strong >> desire for community - to love one another & be loved. it seems to me >> to be increasingly urgent to be able to speak about & teach (our >> children) this ability to be present to the moment & touch that >> powerful part of us that is manifested in love. >> >> i don't have a mature zen practice - but lately i've been imagining >> the meditation practice as a time of 'being with an open heart' to >> _all_ that is (the good, bad & ugly - i'm sure the atonement gatha at >> the beginning of sitting has played a big role in leading me to this >> place). so, this brief period when i'm sitting is a time of undoing >> the habit energy of my closed heart putting a boundary between myself >> & the world & only 'owning' that portion of 'my identity' that i'm >> able to accept. >> >> i'm new to this forum, & have rambled on too much. i have a strong >> interest in exploring how this practice can help in fostering peace in >> the world. >> > > "It's not what's in front of you that counts, or what's behind, its > what's inside of you that matters most. " Thoreau > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:55:19 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > --- Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) Hmmm. > > Uh-oh, I've been slapped on the wrist by the thought > police! I better behave... > > Alex > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:13:51 -0600 (CST) > From: "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > Shitload Is > An Accurate Term. In This Case I Think Comes Under The Skillful > Means Clause Of The Right Speech Doctrine, In The Sameway The > Buddha Is A Shit Stick Teaching Does. Anyway I Have Always Found > Right Speach Whines To Be The Last Bastion Of The Overly > Sanctimonious. (gotta Love That Skillfull Meams Clause) Be Well, > Fudo > > --- Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) Hmmm. > > Dana Nourie: http://www.kelpcritter.com > > "You cannot prevent the birds of sadness from passing over your > head, > but you can prevent them from nesting in your hair." > Swedish proverb > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Bunard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 3:18 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Re: [Zen] what exactly is karma, anyway >> >> >> --- kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > Hmm. .... This From The Rush Limbaugh School Of Buddhism? >> >> Hahaha, good one! >> >> > Declare Yourself To Be Excellence In >> > Broadcasting And Then Any Thing You Say Has To Be >> Excellent. Again The >> > Question Become Since The Definition Of Besotted Is To Be > >> Fooled .... >> > You Can Never Be Sure You Are Not Besotted.... No One Who > >> Is Besotted >> > Thinks They Are Besotted. This Being The Case, How Can > Any >> One Judge >> > Their Own Level Of Intoxication? How Could You Know No >> Karma Is Being >> > Generated By A Post You Write? Handy But Dangerous To >> Declare Yourself >> > Sober....especially When You Spend All Day Drinking. >> >> You're absolutely right. Chalk it under 'wishful thinking'. I >> can guarantee you that a shitload of karma gets generated >> while I'm composing these letters. >> >> But, one has the right to daydream, doesn't one? >> >> Alex >> >> >> No karma was produced during the composition of this letter >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ >> >> >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> --------------------~--> >> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and > theater? >> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! >> http://us.click.yahoo.com/WwRTUD/SOnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------~-> >> >> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right >> Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right >> Concentration, Right Livelihood >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 1.1008 (20050225) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.nod32.com >> >> > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, > Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right > Concentration, Right Livelihood > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------ > Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang > -------------------- > This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. > Get a free PCS Mail account! > Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone > or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. > ------------------ > Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang > -------------------- > This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. > Get a free PCS Mail account! > Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone > or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 14 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:16:37 -0000 > From: "rubiolio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: The nature of the mind/boundries > > > --- In [email protected], kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> We Delineate With Boundries In Order To Communicate, >> But Also To Eat, Eliminate, And Seek Shelter. In Short >> To Survive.... >> .....In The Very Way The Buddha Lived, >> Every Morning He Pointed Out The Idea There Is No You >> Is Not His Teaching. > > This human life is the line between everything and nothing. > That boundry is human existence. > > Andrew > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 15 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:24:13 -0600 (CST) > From: "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > What Can I Say, It Was Your Karma I Guess... > > --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) Hmmm. > > Uh-oh, I've been slapped on the wrist by the thought > police! I better behave... > > Alex > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right > Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right > Livelihood > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > ------------------ > Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang > -------------------- > This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. > Get a free PCS Mail account! > Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone > or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 16 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:24:14 -0000 > From: "rubiolio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: The nature of the mind/boundries > > > --- In [email protected], "rubiolio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> This human life is the line between everything and nothing. >> That boundry is human existence. >> >> Andrew > > Oops, > sorry I crapped on the rug. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 17 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:37:49 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > Are we now to expect a "shitstorm" from the righteous > crowd? > > --- "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >> What Can I Say, It Was Your Karma I Guess... >> >> --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> --- Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) Hmmm. >> >> Uh-oh, I've been slapped on the wrist by the thought >> police! I better behave... >> >> Alex >> >> No karma was produced during the composition of this >> letter >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ >> >> >> >> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, >> Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right >> Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------ >> Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang >> -------------------- >> This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. >> Get a free PCS Mail account! >> Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone >> or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. >> > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 18 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:40:14 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: The nature of the mind/boundries > > --- rubiolio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> --- In [email protected], "rubiolio" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > This human life is the line between everything and >> nothing. >> > That boundry is human existence. >> > >> > Andrew >> >> Oops, >> sorry I crapped on the rug. > > Bad boy! > > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 19 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:39:54 -0800 (PST) > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Are we now to expect a "shitstorm" from the >> righteous >> crowd? > > > I always expect a shitstorm from the righteous crowd, > it is my Karma for my irreverant nature. I might not > be generating Karma, but that does not mean I don't > have a great bit to work off. > > The nice thing about Buddhism is that it does not > demand we never shit on the carpet, just that we clean > it up after we do. This is Karma 101..shit on the > carpet and someone is going to have to clean it > up....if you don't clean it up....wherever you go > there will be shit on the carpet. Better of course to > keep the carpet shitting to a minimum..but at the > least you are going to have to do is clean up your own > mess. After one gains some control of their > bowels..then one can start to add some flowers and > maybe a nice piece of art.....no one notices the art > however, if there is shit on the carpet. This is why I > recommend that even if you are enlightened, if there > is shit on the carpet that first you stop shitting on > the carpet, then you clean it up, then you add the > pretty sounding words, and the nice statues. Otherwise > the best you are going to do is "Did you notice that > nice statue on the carpet next to that shit? I can't > believe anyone would put that there." .....usually the > ones who comment the loudest are the ones pretending > there is no shit on their carpet. This is one of the > first stages of training...there is nothing but shit, > there is no shit, oh shit..I am going to have to clean > that up. Those stuck in the "there is no shit" > stage...well..... they can be a bit obnoxious. They > have learned a little, but they still have a long ways > to go. > > It is a much better impression when the guests leave > to have them saying "Did you see that guy clean up the > carpet? I never knew baby wipes could get a stain out > like that".....maybe we should try a little more of > that and a few less self righteous proclimations and a > few less art works. I have found no one reads a poem > when the paper is soiled. > > Be Well > > Fudo > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 20 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:52:32 -0800 (PST) > From: Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > LOL. This is actually the first time in my life I've > been accused of being sanctimonious or part of the > rightous crowd, since I'm usually the one getting into > trouble for my colorful language. Must say, it's > rather fun to be on the otherside . . . Probably not > generating very good karma for myself though by > stirring up the shit. Oops, I didn't say that! Dana > > > > --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> Are we now to expect a "shitstorm" from the >> righteous >> crowd? >> >> --- "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> > >> > What Can I Say, It Was Your Karma I Guess... >> > >> > --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > --- Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > > Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) Hmmm. >> > >> > Uh-oh, I've been slapped on the wrist by the >> thought >> > police! I better behave... >> > >> > Alex >> > >> > No karma was produced during the composition of >> this >> > letter >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________ >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources >> site! >> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ >> > >> > >> > >> > Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, >> > Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right >> > Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------ >> > Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang >> > -------------------- >> > This message was sent from a PCS Phone from >> Sprint. >> > Get a free PCS Mail account! >> > Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone >> > or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. >> > >> >> No karma was produced during the composition of this >> letter >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Make Yahoo! your home page >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> >> >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> >> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, >> Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right >> Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ===== > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:11:49 -0800 (PST) > From: Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > Are you talking about lower-case shit, or Shit with a > capital 'S'? > > --- kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Are we now to expect a "shitstorm" from the >> > righteous >> > crowd? >> >> >> I always expect a shitstorm from the righteous >> crowd, >> it is my Karma for my irreverant nature. I might not >> be generating Karma, but that does not mean I don't >> have a great bit to work off. >> >> The nice thing about Buddhism is that it does not >> demand we never shit on the carpet, just that we >> clean >> it up after we do. This is Karma 101..shit on the >> carpet and someone is going to have to clean it >> up....if you don't clean it up....wherever you go >> there will be shit on the carpet. Better of course >> to >> keep the carpet shitting to a minimum..but at the >> least you are going to have to do is clean up your >> own >> mess. After one gains some control of their >> bowels..then one can start to add some flowers and >> maybe a nice piece of art.....no one notices the art >> however, if there is shit on the carpet. This is why >> I >> recommend that even if you are enlightened, if there >> is shit on the carpet that first you stop shitting >> on >> the carpet, then you clean it up, then you add the >> pretty sounding words, and the nice statues. >> Otherwise >> the best you are going to do is "Did you notice that >> nice statue on the carpet next to that shit? I can't >> believe anyone would put that there." .....usually >> the >> ones who comment the loudest are the ones pretending >> there is no shit on their carpet. This is one of the >> first stages of training...there is nothing but >> shit, >> there is no shit, oh shit..I am going to have to >> clean >> that up. Those stuck in the "there is no shit" >> stage...well..... they can be a bit obnoxious. They >> have learned a little, but they still have a long >> ways >> to go. >> >> It is a much better impression when the guests leave >> to have them saying "Did you see that guy clean up >> the >> carpet? I never knew baby wipes could get a stain >> out >> like that".....maybe we should try a little more of >> that and a few less self righteous proclimations and >> a >> few less art works. I have found no one reads a poem >> when the paper is soiled. >> >> Be Well >> >> Fudo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Make Yahoo! your home page >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > > No karma was produced during the composition of this letter > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 22 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:13:58 -0800 (PST) > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > It Is Only Ego To Think Your shit is Upper Case Shit > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Are you talking about lower-case shit, or Shit with > a >> capital 'S'? >> >> --- kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > Are we now to expect a "shitstorm" from the >> > > righteous >> > > crowd? >> > >> > >> > I always expect a shitstorm from the righteous >> > crowd, >> > it is my Karma for my irreverant nature. I might > not >> > be generating Karma, but that does not mean I > don't >> > have a great bit to work off. >> > >> > The nice thing about Buddhism is that it does not >> > demand we never shit on the carpet, just that we >> > clean >> > it up after we do. This is Karma 101..shit on the >> > carpet and someone is going to have to clean it >> > up....if you don't clean it up....wherever you go >> > there will be shit on the carpet. Better of course >> > to >> > keep the carpet shitting to a minimum..but at the >> > least you are going to have to do is clean up your >> > own >> > mess. After one gains some control of their >> > bowels..then one can start to add some flowers and >> > maybe a nice piece of art.....no one notices the > art >> > however, if there is shit on the carpet. This is > why >> > I >> > recommend that even if you are enlightened, if > there >> > is shit on the carpet that first you stop shitting >> > on >> > the carpet, then you clean it up, then you add the >> > pretty sounding words, and the nice statues. >> > Otherwise >> > the best you are going to do is "Did you notice > that >> > nice statue on the carpet next to that shit? I > can't >> > believe anyone would put that there." .....usually >> > the >> > ones who comment the loudest are the ones > pretending >> > there is no shit on their carpet. This is one of > the >> > first stages of training...there is nothing but >> > shit, >> > there is no shit, oh shit..I am going to have to >> > clean >> > that up. Those stuck in the "there is no shit" >> > stage...well..... they can be a bit obnoxious. > They >> > have learned a little, but they still have a long >> > ways >> > to go. >> > >> > It is a much better impression when the guests > leave >> > to have them saying "Did you see that guy clean up >> > the >> > carpet? I never knew baby wipes could get a stain >> > out >> > like that".....maybe we should try a little more > of >> > that and a few less self righteous proclimations > and >> > a >> > few less art works. I have found no one reads a > poem >> > when the paper is soiled. >> > >> > Be Well >> > >> > Fudo >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________ >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Make Yahoo! your home page >> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > > === Message Truncated === > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 23 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:22:05 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > kind of off topic, but all the talk of shit got me thinking - what is > brown and sits in the woods? winnies poo > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 24 > Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:00:50 -0800 (PST) > From: kyukyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Re: RE: Re: what exactly is karma, anyway > > Just Goes To Show You..... Even This Is Relative. > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> LOL. This is actually the first time in my life I've >> been accused of being sanctimonious or part of the >> rightous crowd, since I'm usually the one getting > into >> trouble for my colorful language. Must say, it's >> rather fun to be on the otherside . . . Probably not >> generating very good karma for myself though by >> stirring up the shit. Oops, I didn't say that! Dana >> >> >> >> --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > >> > Are we now to expect a "shitstorm" from the >> > righteous >> > crowd? >> > >> > --- "Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > What Can I Say, It Was Your Karma I Guess... >> > > >> > > --- Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > > --- Dana Nourie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Does "shitload" fall under Right Speech;-) > Hmmm. >> > > >> > > Uh-oh, I've been slapped on the wrist by the >> > thought >> > > police! I better behave... >> > > >> > > Alex >> > > >> > > No karma was produced during the composition of >> > this >> > > letter >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > __________________________________ >> > > Do you Yahoo!? >> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources >> > site! >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right > Intention, >> > > Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right >> > > Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right > Livelihood >> > >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------ >> > > Rev. Fudo Michael Koppang >> > > -------------------- >> > > This message was sent from a PCS Phone from >> > Sprint. >> > > Get a free PCS Mail account! >> > > Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone >> > > or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. >> > > >> > >> > No karma was produced during the composition of > this >> > letter >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________ >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Make Yahoo! your home page >> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > > === Message Truncated === > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 25 > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:53:51 -0000 > From: "mackkup" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: too much > > > --- In [email protected], "Rev Genryu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> The quote you used was from a well known peddlar of second hand > wisdom, by the name of Vernon Howard. He made a good living fleecing > the gullible by repackaging palatable quotes and selling the > resulting books, tapes and so on. Essentially he would take bits and > pieces based on genuine insight and present them in such a way as to > entrench spiritual materialism - making the ego itself 'divine', > which is the way many new age and other fake teachers work. They tell > people what they want to hear, dressing it up with selections from > other traditions that they then try to present as being their own > and original. If you want a more modern example - think of Deepak > Chopra. >> >> Genryu > > wow, you have my attention cause that is exactly where i received the > quote from, in fact i receive a daily quote from his website. i dont > get the feeling that he was preeching that the ego is "divine" but > the opposite that people need to rid themselves of their egos for > this is the cause of their miseries. also, thru stories and quotes he > shows that we are responsible for our feelings and nothing dictates > the way we feel, we do. im sure your right about him preaching whats > been preached for thousands of years. i've been told about Deepak as > well but im not to familiar with his teachings. i am under the > impression that buddhism,zen teachings was on the same line of > thought as Vernon Howard's teachings. How did you hear about Vernon > Howard? most people i've talked to never heard of him. Mack >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: mackkup >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:45 AM >> Subject: Re: [Zen] too much >> >> >> >> --- In [email protected], "Rev Genryu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> > The same way I know the taste of water. :o) >> > >> > Genryu >> i disagree, i think that the person is, i could be wrong for i do > not >> know what it means to be enlightened for i believe one must be >> enlightened to know if another is. i am curious as to why you > call it >> cheap insight? i do know that you must know some truth to tell if >> someone else speaks it. Mack >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, > Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, > Right Livelihood >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> ADVERTISEMENT >> Children International >> Would you give Hope to a Child in need? >> >> � Click Here to meet a Girl >> And Give Her Hope >> >> � Click Here to meet a Boy >> And Change His Life >> >> Learn More >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right > Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right > Livelihood > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "It's not what's in front of you that counts, or what's behind, its what's inside of you that matters most. " Thoreau ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? 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