--- In [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On 7/28/05, Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...preceeding text clipped...
> >
> > > Words are everything.
> >
> > If 'words are everything', why is the very essence of zen, that
> > which differentiates it from other forms of Buddhism,
attributed to
> > the wordless, non-verbal, mind-to-mind transmission between the
> > historical Buddha Sakyamuni and the first patriarch Mahakasyapa?
> > Why wasn't this transmission done via a lecture, or better yet in
> > the form of writing?
>
> Like this mailing list? You may have noticed that THIS is
100% 'words'. Which are used to build ideas. Are you maintaining
that this list is of no value? If so, why are YOU using it. Your
actions indicate other than the content of your words. I am
bothered by that apparent contradiction. Please help me clarify
things.
>
> Jim
Jim, Thanks for your post. I think I recognize your name. I
believe we have corresponded through other zen discussion groups.
The portion of my post above that you excerpted needs to be taken in
the context of the whole message thread. From my perspective the
thread started out as a discussion primarily between Normal Milk
(NM) and me about the relative values of dharma study and zazen in
our personal zen practices. At the point of the quoted posting the
thread had degenerated into a debate about the value of words in
zen. During the evolution of the thread and from evidence in other
threads I have come to believe that NM places a very high value on
words and their fellow-travelers (logic, rationality, understanding,
intellect, etc
). I don't. The posting above was my rhetorical
attempt to bring NM's attention to the intentional AVOIDENCE of the
use of words to accomplish the defining act of zen mind-to-mind
transmission. As I said, this is quick recap of the thread from my
perspective. NM might have a completely different view of what the
thread is about and how it evolved.
Now, to your posting:
>Like this mailing list?
No, not like this mailing list. This mailing list is not (to my
knowledge) used as an object of Buddhist dharma study.
>You may have noticed that THIS is 100% 'words'.
Actually I hadn't noticed, and haven't even seen the mailing list.
I believe your assertion however, even though I'm sure that this
mailing list contains more than words: spaces, punctuation marks,
control characters, etc.., but that is of no consequence here. I
believe it's there somewhere. I have figured out how to use it, and
that's all I need to know about it right now. It's a useful tool.
I don't need to understand it, memorize it, chant it, etc
, to be
able to use it to communicate with the e-sangha it represents and to
which it points.
>Which are used to build ideas.
This is actually what I think is the bone of contention. Like
words, I don't value ideas in the context of zen very much. Ideas
are logical constructs. There the results of trying to rationalize
something. Trying to understand. Trying to stuff something real
and amorphous into a neat, little, defined box. Trying to fence
something in with logic. This is useful in doing things like
building a space shuttle, but it is not as useful in zen practice
at least to me.
>Are you maintaining that this list is of no value?
I am not maintaining that words have NO value. I obviously use
them, and even use them when discussing zen especially when I'm
using a medium like this that's text-based and only accommodates
words. I'm stating that in my personal experience the value of
words are at best overrated, and at worst an impediment to zen
practice especially in the beginning.
>If so, why are YOU using it. Your actions indicate other than the
content of your words.
I use words as one way to communicate. I use words to understand.
I use words to classify, discriminate and structure thoughts. I
don't think they have no value. I do think they need to be used,
like any tool, in the right situation and the right time. It's the
inverse of the old `if all you have is a hammer, everything looks
like a nail' idiom. Why place so much importance on words when you
have so many other, better tools at your disposal like zazen?
>I am bothered by that apparent contradiction.
I doubt very seriously if you're bothered at all at my `apparent
contradiction'. If, however, you are bothered by contradictions
you're in for a very bothersome life.
>Please help me clarify things.
I can't help you clarify things. You'll have to clarify things
yourself; or you'll have to clarify your self.
I recommend zazen. Others may recommend dharma study, intellectual
pursuits, understanding and words. The method doesn't really
matter. It's up to you. Knock your self out (pun intended).
Bill!
Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi
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