Hmmm, need new glasses, George.  I quote:

"I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide."  (note that little
word "agree.")

So it is indeed good that you are having trouble seeing where we
disagree!!!! :-)

Jon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go


> Jon, I am having trouble seeing where we disagree.  I think you have
stated
> the case very well.
>
> The basic answer to the original question is that the person who committs
> suicide is not to be judged by anyone other than God.  And there is no
> automatic assignment to some lessor kingdom because of the act.
>
> George
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
>
>
> > I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide.  Just as with any
> > other transgression of law, intent is an important factor.  I don't know
> > about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my
> > state of mind is, much less anyone else's.  There is no set rule for
many
> > things.
> >
> > For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood.
What
> if
> > a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of
> them.
> > A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead.
> > This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right?
> Is
> > it?
> >
> > What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that
they
> > commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal
> > circumstances.  Are they really exercising agency in the same manner
that
> > they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was
talking
> > about a man!)?  I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant.  She
will
> be
> > judged by someone with perfect knowledge.  I am quite happy to leave
that
> > judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly
NOT
> > qualified to make it.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > George Cobabe wrote:
> >
> > > No.  You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should
> not
> > > do so.  Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this
> > > speculation?  You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind
of
> > such
> > > a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to
> them.
> > >
> > > Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice
on
> > this
> > > subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the
> > church.
> > >
> > > I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a
lovely
> > > family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently
> > > displayed as a major contributor to BYU.  He had the world by the tail
> by
> > > any standard.  He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released
> from
> > > that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took
his
> > > life.
> > >
> > > The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear
that
> > you
> > > should not judge him unwisely or harshly.  I would take their advice
on
> > this
> > > matter.
> > >
> > > George
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM
> > > Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a
> > telestial
> > > > being.  Am I right on this point?
> > > >
> > > > Stacy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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