Actually, think the three of you -- Gary, Tom and John-- are
saying the same thing.  And, I agree.  I think it's important
that we take the long view on Iraq, regard it as a beachhead in
the Middle East for giving root to Democracy, however
limited/modified it may be at first.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 1:44 PM
>Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
>That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John.
>Yes, it is
>difficult and it takes time.  But you know what, in
>business management
>terms, we see change as requiring time. When a business
>changes its
>culture, it requires years for the complete change
>over. Behaviorists
>will tell you that normally 20-30% will quickly adapt
>to the change, The
>middle 30% adapt over several months to a year, with a
>large number of
>stragglers that take a long time. Then there are those
>who never adapt,
>who end up leaving the company for another with a
>culture similar to
>what they used to know.
>So it is in society. For the Western nations (English speaking
>primarily), they took centuries to adapt.  But Japan
>and South Korea are
>awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have
>learned the values
>of freedom over a period of less than 50 years.  A long
>time when one
>thinks of how impatient Americans are, but rather quick
>in geological
>terms.  Why did Moses keep Israel in the wilderness for
>40 years? It
>would take that long for those with centuries-long
>slave mentality to be
>replaced by a generation of people with a new non-slave
>culture and
>mentality.  So it is with nations.
>It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a
>strong democracy. So
>what? It means our grandchildren's children will live
>in a world with
>one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks.
>Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long
>term view of these
>things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long
>term vision,
>otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or
>when the Articles
>of Confederation failed.
>Gary Smith
>John W. Redelfs wrote:
>> Tom Matkin wrote:
>> > > The USA and her allies will successfully
>establish democratic rule in
>> > > Iraq.
>> > >
>> > > A. Certainly
>> > > B. Probably
>> > > C. Maybe
>> > > D. Unlikely
>> > > E. Certainly not
>> >
>> >E. Certainly not.  Democratic rule is a privilege
>that must be earned.
>> >The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or
>established for them
>> >any more than I can give someone else my own
>character or discipline.
>> >All the USA can do is try to improve the
>circumstances for the growth of
>> >democracy.  In most cases those interventions seem
>to about as
>> >successful as premature efforts interventions to
>help a chick hatch.
>> I strongly agree with you, Tom.  Freedom, and the
>western democratic
>> traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural
>> phenomenon,
>> not something that can be imposed from above.  The
>roots of freedom in
>> the
>> west go back in the English speaking cultures to
>medieval Britain.  That
>> is
>> why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia,
>and a few other
>> places.  That is also why democracy is so tentative
>on the European
>> continent, and almost nonexistent in non western
>nations.  Democracy is
>> a
>> mind set that is engendered in families that
>understand and value
>> fundamental, God-given human rights.  Those families
>are almost all
>> English
>> speaking.
>> John W. Redelfs                       [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> ===========================================
>> "I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the
>> history of the world to compare with our present
>> circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and
>> Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity
>> which surrounds us now."  --President Boyd K. Packer,
>> February 28, 2004
>> ===========================================
>> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>Gerald (Gary) Smith
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