My comments intermingled below:
Jack wrote: This is interesting info, Gary, but I doubt that it applies to this discussion. Although business traditions are mercurial, cultural traditions tend to strengthen exponentially from generation to generation. The hand that rocks the cradle, etc. I find it highly doubtful that these traditions can be changed in a few years. Gary: Any group, whether a nation, community, business, or family has culture. And the way cultures interact, adapt, fight, etc, are all the same, regardless of the unit/organization. The only difference is the time span required for change to occur. BTW, I have a BS in Management and a MA in Teaching/History; so I am able to compare events from both business (organizational behavior) with nations (national behavior). Jack: Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. Gary: Actually, there are two reasons. First, people have tried rising up against Saddam in the past. He has had many assassination attempts against him over the years. He's just been extremely successful in squashing the opposition. One of his sons-in-law fled the country a decade ago, gave us info on him. After several years, he was told he was forgiven and to return; which he did, only to be beheaded. When the Shiites in southern Iraq tried rebellion after the first Gulf War, they were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. The Kurds also tried breaking free, only to be gassed by the tens of thousands. Only after Saddam himself changed the culture - his brutality forced a cultural change over a period of just a few years - did the people resign themselves to his rule. But, once again, it is a cultural change. The people learn in the culture to not speak out, or they will be tortured and killed. You'll note that with a change of government, the people now feel free to speak out and protest, because the new culture is setting in, which tells them they aren't going to be tortured and killed for protesting the USA. Cultures change. ><snip>... Japan and South Korea are >awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the > values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. Jack: We forced a democratic constitution upon Japan, literally at gunpoint, which they are already contemplating abandoning. Even now, the Japanese are happy to live with a degree of regimentation and control far beyond what we would find acceptable. Politics in Japan are not a populist exercise. Although they do vote, the Japanese people allow most of their politics to be decided behind closed doors. And I should add I'm basing this from mainstream sources, like Newsweek and U.S News & World Report - not fringe publications like the New American. Gary: I never said their culture is exactly like ours. The democratic culture is still evolving. But it is evolving. The people vote. A major difference in cultures is that they tend to trust their government officials, while we in the USA are suspicious of government power. There are some cultural things that just won't change. While many of them remember the Emperor with fondness, we remember King George putting the Stamp Act on us. Our views of governance, therefore are going to be somewhat different. Still, you don't see anyone in Japan pushing to go back to the old days of an Emperor running everything. Democracy is well entrenched in their culture, even if it isn't exactly like ours. >It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So >what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with >one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Jack: Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Gary: What was the cost of rebuilding Europe and Japan after WWII? Back then, our people were glad to bear the burden and cost of nation building: Germany, Italy, Japan, etc. Where would the world be if we hadn't? Germany was left in shambles after WWI, and its desperate culture of poverty caused it to accept Hitler. England's culture caused it to accept "Peace in our Time" via Neville Chamberlain. We learned that ignoring a blister does not necessarily make the blister go away. Instead, it often will fester into a gangrenous wound requiring amputation. Over time, culture changes as people surrender themselves to the new situation. This is what happened in Germany, both after WWI, and after WWII. This is what happened to Japan after WWII. Jack: Besides, are there _any_ Islamic nations that are not run by radical kooks? Was Saddam alone in persecuting the Kurds? Didn't the president of Maylasia recently release a diatribe against the vast Jewish conspiracy controlling the west? Did not Syria, Jordan and Egypt attempt to exterminate Israel only 31 years ago (supported by Saudi Arabia, I might add)? How does Saudi Arabia stand on human rights? How wide is suffrage in the Islamic world? Gary: You have to start somewhere. Was there anyone in Japan 60 years ago that wasn't an Emperor-loving kook? Remember the kamikaze pilots? Back then, they were the terrorists. There are a lot of Anti-Semitic peoples in the USA and Europe: skin heads, NeoNazis, members of Congress, etc. The cultural attitude of the Muslim world against Israel is real and deep. However, it can change slowly. Egypt has officially recognized Israel for the past 25 years, thanks to USA involvement (and bribes, which are cheaper than fighting wars). Jack: Although it is true that Iraq may eventually switch over to a strong democracy, this will only result after a genuine, grassroots cultural shift. Such a shift has to come from within; our meddling can only hurt, not help such a process. A brief invasion will solve nothing. Gary: No, cultural shifts can be forced from without. If we were to take a group of people and begin force-feeding them new ideas over several decades, it would eventually begin to affect them as a whole. For example, just a few decades ago, homosexuality was considered aberrant behavior in the USA. Due to a media push to re-educate the populace, the average American now accepts it as part of normal society (although most will say: as long as it isn't in their own home). Now the media is pushing further, to full acceptance. Those who oppose homosexuality are now the ones looked down upon as being out of step with society and the "norm." While there are still many who openly oppose it, the vast majority of Americans, including LDS, have begun to accept it as more normal, thanks to Will and Grace. I've even found myself having to force myself back from that slippery slope of popular thought, and remember that we are talking about a heinous sin. Only in speaking out harshly against the sin have I refound my focus on this, in not accepting homosexuality as a normal part of society. Cultures change, especially when the media has the ability to work them over a few decades. Moses also found this out as he led the tribes for 40 years in the wilderness. After 40 years, the vast majority of the people were no longer acculturated to a slave mentality, but to a free and wandering peoples mentality. The culture had changed enough to be able to go in and conquer the land and possess it as free people. >Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these >things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, >otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles >of Confederation failed. Jack: The heroes of the American Revolution were scions of a rich democratic tradition. The people of Iraq are inheritors of a factional, authoritarian tradition that we cannot hope to change by force. Gary: Not change overnight. But over a period of a few decades, and they will begin to forget authoritarianism and cherish the freedoms they have. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------
