Alexander Limi wrote:

And that differs from other Plone releases how exactly? ;-)

And what, exactly, have you done to help Plone have less bugs?

*sigh* there's not a lot I can do, the problems with Plone are cultural. There seems to be a pervasive culture of monkey patching and bludegeoning code to meet functionality requirements while not worrying about software architecture, refactoring, scalability or performance except in passing fads. Yeah, sure it works out of the box like it should, and it has all the checkbox features, and it even looks pretty if that's the look you like, but try and do anything that doesn't ship out of the box and _doesn't_ involve the aforementioned code blugeoning and you end up with a solution that will only work for your specific project because of the Plone-wide assumptions you have to break to get it done. Either that or not give a damn about performance or maintainability and "just make it work". Sure, it'll work for a few releases without change if you're lucky, but it'll likely be dog slow and pig ugly if you look behind the scenes. I'm sorry, that kind of coding just doesn't interest me. But, inspite of that, you will see the odd change I've made to try and help, and I try and provide simple tools like zdb, Stepper, MailingLogger, SimpleUserFolder and MailTemplates that people are free to use without any obnoxious GPHell licensing and without having to worry about some semi-formed ip assignment that may or may not stand up in any given court of law around the world.

I know you get income from Plone consulting, how about making your workday better *and* pay back for the stuff you get for free?

Because I can't. The win's we've had on the one big Plone-related (and there's not _much_ of Plone actually left now, sorry to tell you) project I work on have been by stripping out all the complexity so that code meets the _project_ requirements and doesn't worry about interacting with any of the myriad of Plone half-interfaces and semi finished rubbish that gets shipped as part of every release.

You are seriously starting to piss me off, Chris

Don't worry, the quality of code that ships in the Plone bundle has already done much to take me way beyond pissed off. I find it a tragedy that a project with such a large following can't manage to get anyone capable of actually standing back and taking a good hard look at the quality of some of your key components and sorting it out rather than tacking on the next whizz-bang feature in a similarly half-arsed manner.

>- as the only person
in the Zope world so far. An achievement in itself, but not one you should be particularly proud of.

Honestly, I'm sorry you feel that way but at least I make the distinction about what it is I'm pissed off about. The people in the Plone community are great, and I get on with the majority of them very well as far as I know, but sadly, that alone doesn't make them write good software. I am pissed off with the _software_ not the _people_ and if I thought there was a sane way I could make things better, I would. But again, honestly, I think the software that currently makes up Plone above the CMF, and even that could do with a good kick, is beyond help and would only really be improved by a ground-up rewrite.

And finally, if you're pissed off with me, that's fine, I don't really give a monkeys how you feel towards me personally. Write some good software, then I might ;-)



PS: Sorry for the rant, I was hoping to avoid this heading to a list but the one liner I posted earlier was as good as I could make it, I even put the smiley in ;-) For Alex to reply like this has now got the response it deserved. Really, I was excited to try Plone 2.1 with all the hype about the quality being so much better and improved performance, but having just had to give up on another project involving Plone 2.1 and LinguaPlone because it was way too slow, particularly on Windows, and trying to fix any of the problems I found felt like playing some sick and twisted version of whack-a-mole, not to mention the fact that Plone still ships with failing unit tests that cause other product's unit tests to fail means that while I have loads of respect for the project in managing to grow such a large community, and particularly for the people who have the patience to take part, I have zero respect for the software that underpins it...

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