Toby Dickenson wrote:
> >I'm not sure exactly what problem you are refering to. It sound's
> >like an issue of depending on a specific acquired name and having
> >the name overridden with something bogus. Is that it?
> There are two related issues that conspire to make the problem hard:
> A. What you descibe above, that looks like it will be fixed in part
>    by NO_SUBOBJECTS_OVERRIDE (which looks great). The outstanding
>    issue is what happens when a new version of a product wants to
>    add a new NO_SUBOBJECTS_OVERRIDE name (when objects of that
>    name may already exist in old subobjects).

I think that there should be some discussion of this design
pattern. Specifically, I'm not sure I like the idea of an application
that depends on fixed names in a hierarchy. In fact, I know I
don't. :)  I think it would be a good to have a discussion of
this pattern. In particular, I'd like to see:

  - Problems it solves

  - Alternative approaches

*I* would like to see this discussion happen in a Wiki,
but I won't insist. :)  FWIW, it will be much more likely
for me to make comments in a wiki, especially if someone
sends me the wiki link when they are ready for comments.
>    In many cases these to-be-protected names are part of a
>    product's API.
>    suggests a naming convention for new API attributes. I suggested
>    in the discussion Wiki that it should not be possible to create
>    subobjects with an id of the form reserved for API attributes -
>    but it seems to have got lost in the Wiki noise :-(

I thought, until a couple of days ago, that this proposal had been rejected.
I found out recently that it hadn't. I'll look at your comments when
I move the proposal forward.

On Wikis, while they need improvement (see
I personally find them far less noisy than mail
lists. Hopefully, we'll make the wiki's provide
the best of both worlds soon.

> >  2. There will be a new interface in Zope 2.3 that will allow
> >     you to prevent a name from being used lower in a containement
> >     hierarchy. This change is documented at:
> >
> >     The work has already been done and checked into CVS. I've asked Shane,
> >     the author, to update the interfaces wiki to capture this change.
> B. A common mistake in DTML authoring is to look up a name in the
>    DTML namespace when the context expected to contain the name is
>    not at the top of the namespace stack. The bug goes undetected
>    if the context at the top of the stack does not contain that
>    name.

But if the name isn't found in the inner (aka top ;) namespace,
then the search should proceed further in.
>    I have found that this happens too frequently even for
>    skilled authors, and is rarely detected in review. In summary:
>    one namespace isnt enough.
>    I suspect that this is the problem percieved by Andrew Kuchling
>    (who started this thread back on zope-zeo). Our solution
>    to this (successful so far) has been to replace DTML in any use
>    other than Document Templates.

I think that there is broad agreement that DTML should be
uses soley for templates and shouldn't contain complex logic.
>    (For me, the greatest horror is the name 'DTML Method'. The name
>    'method' implies a tight coupling to the instance that it is a
>    method of, however it is possible for a DTML Method to execute in
>    a context where all of it's instances attributes are masked by
>    those of other objects. Urgh)

This is a great point. The intent was that DTML Methods would be bound
most tightly to the instances they were accessed in, but this is not what's

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