Thanks Andrew for a heartfelt description of what is
happening here. 

It is clear that unlike the other freeware products
like Lenux, JBoss.., Zope has lost all of the
advantages of being a freeware product. 

What I find sad is that the extreme commercialization
of Zope is hurting Zope- this discussion list is
censored in a way that would not be allowed for most
commercial products.

I posted a serious bug- Zope throws an exception after
trying to resolve a transaction conflict three times.
The discussion was quickly moved line and I was told
this is not a problem- Not a problem? Give me a
break!!
This nearly killed my application and cost me several
weeks of work.

Those who know of these problems can write clean
applications but these issues are kept strictly
confidential. 

To the *TRUE* open source community I would just say
let us reclaim Zope-even if it means branching.
                      Clark


--- Andrew Kenneth Milton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Since I seem to be the cause of all hell breaking
> loose over here, I thought
> take the opportunity to respond, since I haven't
> really been given an
> opportunity to do that. Since this probably going to
> be my only ever 
> posting to zope-dev, I don't feel constrained to be
> brief in exercising my
> right of reply.
> 
> I'm not going to apologise for the comments I made,
> or the manner in which I 
> made them. Those comments were made on a list run by
> me, basically for my own
> amusement. If I had posted either of those emails to
> someone else's list, I'd
> quite rightly deserve to be fried.
> 
> I don't make money from Zope Development (I don't
> make money), I don't
> run a website, in fact, I don't actually use any of
> the products I have
> released. So it's not like I have a vested interest
> in Zope. My fortunes don't
> rest on the success or failure of Zope or any one of
> its components. I live 
> in a country the size of the USA that has the
> approximate population of 
> New York State. Even if I stood on a busy street
> corner with a loud hailer, 
> the number of people I could actually influence
> would be small. This makes
> me one of the people in the trenches.
> 
> It is the people who are in the trenches who are
> increasingly being
> disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not
> subscribed to zope-dev, 
> you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is
> not an appropriate forum 
> for them to be subscribed to. As some of you know, I
> was hounded off of the
> zope@ mailing list for suggesting that there be some
> other mailing list
> for more technical discussion. People were very
> upset, because, they
> already have a hard time getting any support. Noone
> from Zope Corp seems
> to monitor the list to help out. The zope list was
> manned by people like
> me volunteering expertise and time to help more of
> the little people.
> 
> A lot of those people come to the irc channel, which
> is also rarely if
> ever visited by anyone from Zope Corp. Most people
> know that #zope is the
> place to go when all else fails. The major irony of
> this is, that most
> of the people seeking help on #zope are working with
> it, or consulting with
> it, and are supported by me and others for free. We
> are the ones that
> deal with the 'general zope public.' We are the
> defenders of the faith.
> 
> The Zope Weekly News, which turned into Zope Monthly
> News, which now
> has not been updated since October is a joke. It
> shows Zope Corporation's
> attitude towards their community. It says "We don't
> care about our community."
> I'm sure that's not the feeling of the *individuals*
> inside Zope Corp, I'm
> sure it is (or I hope it is) a source of great
> embarassment to those
> individuals that work for Zope Corp.
> 
> Letting your community showpiece atrophy doesn't
> show any great passion 
> towards us, it certainly doesn't endear new users to
> Zope. New users are
> the only way Zope Corp is going to make more money,
> unless of course
> zope.org is just for us non-revenue generating
> little fish, an inconvenience
> associated with having Open Source software, not
> something that promotes
> and supports the non-paying community.
> 
> Noone wants a standardised User Management API more
> than me. I *want* to
> have confidence that someone can replace any User
> Folder with XUF, and it
> will just work. So when I come across something that
> says there is a 
> New User Management API, I get excited. I prepare to
> roll up my sleeves and
> make the necessary changes to make software I
> contributed to the community
> continue to work. I think we all know by now my
> opinion on what I found,
> the harshness of the expression of that opinion is
> directly related to 
> the way that these days Zope Corp seems to be an
> Ivory Tower and the way
> they seem to treat the community at large.
> 
> There are approximately 450 products released by
> just over 200 people on
> Zope.org. There are approximately 1000 'entities'
> subscribed to this list
> (more to the main list), I represent 0.1% of this
> community, but, am
> responsible (but, not soley) for 3% of the total
> product space available.
> 
> If people want to form an opinion of me based on one
> email, that's your
> right. You don't have the right to tell me, that *I*
> don't have the right
> to say the things I'm saying. I have earned the
> right to make these comments,
> I have contributed time, effort, and code, and I put
> my money where my
> mouth is. I'm not some backseat political observer,
> I am in the trenches
> I deal with the disaffected, the confused, and the
> generally pissed off
> every day. In my efforts, I try to help to make Zope
> a better product.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find a more stalwart
> supporter of Zope than me.
> This doesn't mean that I have to think that
> everything that leaves the 
> holy temple of Zope Corp is the panacea of web
> development. My opinions
> might be wrong, but, they're not wrong simply
> because something was released 
> by Zope Corp, or written by some person you have
> attached some god like
> status to.
> 
> I will continue to do my thing, but, the way Zope
> Corp deals with us, 
> the little fish had better change, or there's not
> going to be much of a
> community left. Those of you who subscribe to
> zope-dev who think that your
> time is too valuable to be spent helping others,
> well, words fail me.
> 
> -- 
> Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet|              
>        | Andrew Milton
> The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd          |              
>        |
> ACN: 082 081 472 ABN: 83 082 081 472 |  M:+61 416
> 022 411   | Carpe Daemon
> PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068   
> |[EMAIL PROTECTED]| 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
> **  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists - 
> 
> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

_______________________________________________
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

Reply via email to