Thanks Andrew for a heartfelt description of what is
happening here. 

It is clear that unlike the other freeware products
like Lenux, JBoss.., Zope has lost all of the
advantages of being a freeware product. 

What I find sad is that the extreme commercialization
of Zope is hurting Zope- this discussion list is
censored in a way that would not be allowed for most
commercial products.

I posted a serious bug- Zope throws an exception after
trying to resolve a transaction conflict three times.
The discussion was quickly moved line and I was told
this is not a problem- Not a problem? Give me a
This nearly killed my application and cost me several
weeks of work.

Those who know of these problems can write clean
applications but these issues are kept strictly

To the *TRUE* open source community I would just say
let us reclaim Zope-even if it means branching.

--- Andrew Kenneth Milton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Since I seem to be the cause of all hell breaking
> loose over here, I thought
> take the opportunity to respond, since I haven't
> really been given an
> opportunity to do that. Since this probably going to
> be my only ever 
> posting to zope-dev, I don't feel constrained to be
> brief in exercising my
> right of reply.
> I'm not going to apologise for the comments I made,
> or the manner in which I 
> made them. Those comments were made on a list run by
> me, basically for my own
> amusement. If I had posted either of those emails to
> someone else's list, I'd
> quite rightly deserve to be fried.
> I don't make money from Zope Development (I don't
> make money), I don't
> run a website, in fact, I don't actually use any of
> the products I have
> released. So it's not like I have a vested interest
> in Zope. My fortunes don't
> rest on the success or failure of Zope or any one of
> its components. I live 
> in a country the size of the USA that has the
> approximate population of 
> New York State. Even if I stood on a busy street
> corner with a loud hailer, 
> the number of people I could actually influence
> would be small. This makes
> me one of the people in the trenches.
> It is the people who are in the trenches who are
> increasingly being
> disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not
> subscribed to zope-dev, 
> you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is
> not an appropriate forum 
> for them to be subscribed to. As some of you know, I
> was hounded off of the
> zope@ mailing list for suggesting that there be some
> other mailing list
> for more technical discussion. People were very
> upset, because, they
> already have a hard time getting any support. Noone
> from Zope Corp seems
> to monitor the list to help out. The zope list was
> manned by people like
> me volunteering expertise and time to help more of
> the little people.
> A lot of those people come to the irc channel, which
> is also rarely if
> ever visited by anyone from Zope Corp. Most people
> know that #zope is the
> place to go when all else fails. The major irony of
> this is, that most
> of the people seeking help on #zope are working with
> it, or consulting with
> it, and are supported by me and others for free. We
> are the ones that
> deal with the 'general zope public.' We are the
> defenders of the faith.
> The Zope Weekly News, which turned into Zope Monthly
> News, which now
> has not been updated since October is a joke. It
> shows Zope Corporation's
> attitude towards their community. It says "We don't
> care about our community."
> I'm sure that's not the feeling of the *individuals*
> inside Zope Corp, I'm
> sure it is (or I hope it is) a source of great
> embarassment to those
> individuals that work for Zope Corp.
> Letting your community showpiece atrophy doesn't
> show any great passion 
> towards us, it certainly doesn't endear new users to
> Zope. New users are
> the only way Zope Corp is going to make more money,
> unless of course
> is just for us non-revenue generating
> little fish, an inconvenience
> associated with having Open Source software, not
> something that promotes
> and supports the non-paying community.
> Noone wants a standardised User Management API more
> than me. I *want* to
> have confidence that someone can replace any User
> Folder with XUF, and it
> will just work. So when I come across something that
> says there is a 
> New User Management API, I get excited. I prepare to
> roll up my sleeves and
> make the necessary changes to make software I
> contributed to the community
> continue to work. I think we all know by now my
> opinion on what I found,
> the harshness of the expression of that opinion is
> directly related to 
> the way that these days Zope Corp seems to be an
> Ivory Tower and the way
> they seem to treat the community at large.
> There are approximately 450 products released by
> just over 200 people on
> There are approximately 1000 'entities'
> subscribed to this list
> (more to the main list), I represent 0.1% of this
> community, but, am
> responsible (but, not soley) for 3% of the total
> product space available.
> If people want to form an opinion of me based on one
> email, that's your
> right. You don't have the right to tell me, that *I*
> don't have the right
> to say the things I'm saying. I have earned the
> right to make these comments,
> I have contributed time, effort, and code, and I put
> my money where my
> mouth is. I'm not some backseat political observer,
> I am in the trenches
> I deal with the disaffected, the confused, and the
> generally pissed off
> every day. In my efforts, I try to help to make Zope
> a better product.
> You would be hard pressed to find a more stalwart
> supporter of Zope than me.
> This doesn't mean that I have to think that
> everything that leaves the 
> holy temple of Zope Corp is the panacea of web
> development. My opinions
> might be wrong, but, they're not wrong simply
> because something was released 
> by Zope Corp, or written by some person you have
> attached some god like
> status to.
> I will continue to do my thing, but, the way Zope
> Corp deals with us, 
> the little fish had better change, or there's not
> going to be much of a
> community left. Those of you who subscribe to
> zope-dev who think that your
> time is too valuable to be spent helping others,
> well, words fail me.
> -- 
> Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet|              
>        | Andrew Milton
> The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd          |              
>        |
> ACN: 082 081 472 ABN: 83 082 081 472 |  M:+61 416
> 022 411   | Carpe Daemon
> PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068   
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