Just as a last comment- and this is getting tiresome
even for me.

My favorite freeware project is JBoss www.jboss.org.
They built a really excellent J2EE server without any
corporate funding. 

The JBoss developers manage the training and support 
for JBoss themselves, and use the revenue it generates
to fund their development efforts. 

You are falling into trap that developers fall into so
easily- letting some guys with MBA's step between them
and the customer and then being grateful to these guys
for a pittance of support or salary.

In my opinion all the revenue generated from Zope
should go to you guys to fund more great projects.

Anyone got a problem with that?

Check out how the guys at JBoss do things- one last
time- Dudes.

--- Danny William Adair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Clark,
> I see your point here, and I understand your
> problem.
> But I do not share your opinion, especially when it
> comes to its conclusion. 
> (branching)
> Zope Corp. is not living in a dream world:
> > On the one hand ZC is this munificent benefactor
> of
> > Zope.
> >
> > On the other hand ZC is this poor cash strapped
> little
> > company that can't afford to take any interest in
> Zope
> > unless they have an immediate incentive.
> >
> I have zope.org, and I have zope.com
> It's the same company, isn't it?
> It's the same people on the same payroll, isn't it?
> If I go to zope.com, I know I will definitely spend
> money, probably a lot of 
> money. If I go to zope.org, I know I'm not going to
> spend a single dime. 
> Guess where you'll find me? Now guess where'll find
> others. This separation 
> makes sense, and imho it should have been done
> earlier! Now that it's late, 
> Zope Corp has to work on its image, which would have
> been easier a year ago. 
> (I think the new CEO's "first approach" towards the
> developers community was 
> pretty "unfruitful". Should I put a smiley here?
> Naaaa... He has learned 
> quickly, I even forgot his name (whoops, who said
> that?))
> I don't think ZC is a poor cash strapped little
> company, though it is still 
> quite small. But in fact, this is totally
> irrelevant: No investor (see last 
> line of this mail) will throw money out the window,
> whether it's a lot or a 
> little. He wants it back x20, better in 2 or 3 three
> years than in 5 or 6. 
> And I don't see why Zope Corp should pay "high-end"
> full-time developers to 
> "keep the fraggles entertained" (yeah I'm one of the
> fraggles, sometimes). I 
> do appreciate that they snip off some of their
> weekly time, and support the 
> community(which has helped Zope Corp a lot in the
> past imho). I can not and 
> will not pay them for this and only this, and I
> don't see how you get the 
> idea that ZC can.
> >
> > If ZC is the benefactor of zope, why can't they
> > develop a plan that is independent of day to day
> money
> > making?
> Open-Sourcing was a nice move, since (among a lot of
> other things) it opens 
> up business opportunities for other people. Still,
> it costs a lot of money to 
> maintain an Open-Source project of this size.
> Zope is the BASIS of ZC's consulting and services
> work, so how could you 
> possibly make this independent from each other?
> You can listen to Paul Everitts thoughts on this if
> you take a look at the 
> interview he had with O'Reilly Network (quite a
> while ago). Or maybe just 
> wait a moment...
> >
> > If ZC is this little company that does not have
> the
> > resources to provide true leadership, then why
> does
> > Zope need them?
> I see true leadership, but I also see _mutual_
> benefits. I also believe that 
> Zope would have never come that far if DC/ZC hadn't
> backed it. What it seems 
> to me that you are trying to do here is take
> something away you never been 
> responsible of in the first place. If there was no
> ZC/DC, there wouldn't have 
> been a Zope, and this is the truth that you deny.
> I respect ZC for the responsibility they are taking
> more than I envy anyone 
> of copyrights. The ZPL has all you can ask for.
> Set up a website and promote it as the "alternative"
> development site for 
> Zope and upcoming versions of Zope. Good luck! With
> "after hour" developers 
> alone you will wallow in it for years. How many
> people would feel attracted, 
> which people, and why? What would developers get on
> this site? What would be 
> the "added value" of the site? Copies of documents
> that people have written 
> that had been paid by a company (ZC)?
> And who will oversee the development cycle as a
> whole? Me? You? When? After 
> "work"? So if you take the whole day for this, who's
> gonna pay for your costs 
> of living? Oh, an investor. What should he invest
> in? Why? How do you plan to 
> get his money back (x20)? Ohhhhhh..... You want to
> do this WHILE you're at 
> the other job.... :-)
> ZC is a company "dude", and a company has a business
> plan. That plan either 
> fits yours or it doesn't. Of course they're not
> playing with marbles.
> (but it looks like it's yours)
> Customer to development company:
> - "So what's the technical platform for this
> project?"
> - "Zope"
> - "Zope, uhu... Whose Software is that? Will this
> thing exist as long as our 
> project exists? Where will we get support?"
> - Ah well... The Software belongs to "zope.org",
> actually no one specific. 
> It's open source, developed and maintained by people
> who find it a "nice" 
> piece of software, and work on it after finishing
> their real job during the 
> day. Support? Well there are a couple of email
> addresses on that site, I 
> think they answer pretty quickly... Uh-huh..
> Duuhhh...
> I support ZC's approach. Most def.
> btw, Check the "corporate guide for business
> decisions" (or something like 
> that) on zope.org to see some of the benefits we as
> developers have from a 
> corporate approach.
> > ...
> > 
> >  Zope would not have  trouble finding corporate
> > sponsors even from fortune 500 companies like IBM
> or
> > HP.
> You know about the recent investment that has been
> made, don't you?
> Yours,
> Danny
> P.S.: Sorry for the bad structure. I was adding and
> adding, and I'm not very 
> satisfied with the current form. Will send it now
> anyway, cos: I gotta go to 
> work. Using Zope of course.
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