I almost 100% agree with Casey--and hallelujah for him writing it, because 
that means I don't have to. ;-)

I agree that
  we ought to trash frames
  we ought to use strict xhtml 1.0
  we ought to rely on CSS for all graphic elements
  (correlative) we ought to not use *any* shims or non-logical tables
  the site ought to work completely without JS or Flash
  the site ought to be usable and legible without any CSS

I disagree that
  we ought to use iframes (why lock out NS4 if we don't have to?)
  we ought to avoid Flash like the plague (see my XML file tree email)
  this shouldn't be the default skin (it *should*)

I further feel that
  it would be very easy to develop a CSS file folder that one could place in 
a skin that would deliver different CSS files based on browser-sniffing.  The 
CSS could be cached by the browser if we always call it from the same 
address.  While CSS support varies widely in all the various browsers, and I 
think we should *ship* with a CSS file that requires a standards-compliant 
browser such as those that Toby lists, I see *no reason* why we should design 
the html itself so that a NS4 user could not use the default skin simply by 
building him or her a new CSS file.  It might not look nearly as slick as the 
compliant browsers, but you can still do some reasonable things with NS4 

I feel strongly about this, and will be happy to explain my positions further 
if desired.


PS Casey how is it 11:50 already by you? :-)

On Friday 05 April 2002 11:50 am, Casey Duncan wrote:
> I agree 100% with Toby. I don't care how it looks in NS4 or (insert old
> non-standard browser here), so long as the functionality is still there.
> I think the ZMI should also work 100% with w3m. If we do that, then we
> are basically already taking care or accessibility.
> I also vote to kill frames. However, IFrames might still be useful (for
> the tree view, etc).
> As for Javascript, it should work 100% with Javascript turned off. But,
> I'm happy to have some JS sprinkled in there as candy that makes things
> easier, or enhances the UI in some way.
> I am also in full support of utilizing CSS to the greatest extent
> practical. The best thing about CSS is that when done properly, non-CSS
> compliant browsers work just fine, they just can't display things as
> nicely.
> A proper CSS class structure takes planning, just like the Python
> classes do. We need to make sure that the CSS design is an integral part
> of the ZMI, not just purely evolved as an afterthought.
> In light of that, I would like to see a ZMI skin that is fully xhtml 1.0
> compliant, and uses CSS2 to its full extend, and possibly some CSS3. To
> me that means that one could develop the html coding completely devoid
> of presentation (no tables used for formatting, etc). I would also like
> to avoid using images for this skin unless they convey some meaning
> (such as icons) or otherwise enhance the useability. IOW, no shims,
> rounded corners, etc.
> I doubt this could be the default skin because it would probably be
> pretty plain graphically and not display too well on older browsers.
> OTOH, you could simply replace/tweak the CSS to fully customize the
> layout of the ZMI. That would rock.
> If I had a clone somewhere I would volunteer him to develop it 8^).
> -Casey
> Toby Dickenson wrote:
> > On 05 Apr 2002 09:04:15 +0000, Dan Pierson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>I agree.  IMHO the browser compatibility requirements for the new ZMI
> >>should be summarized as:
> >>
> >>    Current IE
> >>    Mozilla 1.0
> >>    Konqueror (KDE 3.0 version)
> >>    ...what's the current state of Mac browsers...
> >
> > That doesnt sound unreasonable as a list for browsers that will behave
> > 100% correct.
> >
> > On occasions it is necessary (or convenient) to use a previous
> > generation browser with the ZMI. Its would be good if they only
> > suffered cosmetic problems, not functional limitations.
> >
> >
> > Toby Dickenson
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-dev
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