I've been around the Zope/Python scene for many years.  One thing I see this 
group suffer I believe if from the groupthink mentality.  Imho Alexander 
Limi "2 cents worth" demonstrated Erik's point perfectly.   applaud the 
effort made with plone.  I believe it to be a spoon in which we can spoon 
feed newbies into the CMS side of the Zope way.
  Seem my post regarding Zopezen.org.  Plone is slow.  Zope with CMF is 
slow... Not as slow as plone, but the issue is with ZPT.  There is no way 
around it Erik is right.  Developer time being spent on speeding up plone in 
order to backport the improvements to Zope/CMF sounds... Well arse 
backwards.  Plone has its place, but I suspect some doublespeak here, lets 
be realistic about it.
   I debated a long time ago about CMS being the core of Zope anyway, but lo 
and behold they pushed on with a "CMF" product.  I see plone as being the 
same, a product. Now my understanding is that with Zope3, they will roll a 
lot of the CMF functionality into Zope3.... Hmm go figure?  All that time 
wasted on maintaining 2 products Zope/CMF has proven cumbersome at the least 
imho.  Now just imagine if the community would have listened to the lone 
voice James-then/Erik-now where we would be today.  We all know that the 
decision back then was based on commercial interest for ZC and others trying 
to market some industry catch phrase.

   So I hear you Erik, you have these wonderful, bright people working on 
special interest projects, but not on the core issues that allow Zope to 
have that strong core that it needs to move it forward.
  With it being evident in how the "Release early/Release often" mantra has 
been thrown to the wayside, I'm left wondering what do I do next with my 
2.5.1 site?  Do I go the plone, 2.6, 2.7 or 3.0 route?

   Like I said before, as a qoute from Mr limi" you should not mix in the
>Plone name if you do not intend to follow our guidelines.
"TM.  Plone is a major benefit to the community.  Please keep up the good 
work and effort.  I believe that the master minds behind it all should be 
working to make Zope3 a reality for the plone product and not the other way 
around, hence you'll screw up mixed-up people like me even more.  I hope I'm 
making some sense with this.  I understand that this is "free" software, but 
as I "community" we should work toward making sure that we all can have a 
voice and benefit from plone/zope 2.5-2.6-2.7-3.0/CMF/Thingy.

  I'm sure I'll have to take a loan out on this, because it's more than 2 
cents worth ;-).

-- James
I am a Washington State Citizen.
Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law
Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html

At 05:08 PM 10/2/02, Alexander Limi wrote:

><quote who="Erik Lange">
> > In the install-script for MMM Skins, we call it a "plone rip-off"...
> > I've  suggested that we change the product name to "Plone skin" to Alan,
> > to  recognize the fine work of Plone, and to make it clear what it is: A
> > skin  that gives your CMF-site a Plone-look, and nothing more...
>As one of the two designers of the Plone skin, I thought I would send you
>my 2 cents on this.

Most welcome ! :-)

>Not to be harsh, but calling your skin anything with Plone would just
>cause confusion, as it has none of the distinguishing marks of the
>original look, apart from the blue color.

Nevertheless people constantly assumes that we use Plone on our sites... so
it must have something in common with the Plone 'thingy'


>You break almost every consistency rule and design decision in your skin,

Yep - the rules set up by Plone - not the rules of CMF ;-)

That was what leed us to make the product in the first place...

>and it is nowhere near being Plone, neither from a usability nor a design

Nope - and we're proud of that ;-)

>I will not comment further on this, I find this discussion a bit
>far-fetched. Plone is a separate entity, and you should not mix in the
>Plone name if you do not intend to follow our guidelines.

I agree :-)

And we don't intend to follow your guidelines.. sorry.. but why should we ?

How about "CMF Zlone skin" for a name ? ;-)

Or "CMF BTTF Skin" ? BBTF = back to the future ;-)

Is it okay that we thanks Plone.org for the inspiration and basic layout in
the next release ?

Or should we simply just blame it all on Canada ? *ROTFL*


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