>From: Paul Everitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>I agree with Andy.  Zope is a tool.  Things like Silva and Plone are 
>products.  The purpose of Zope is to allow people to build things like 
>Silva or Plone, or things quite different (perhaps custom to their own 
>needs) quickly.
>And frankly, tools don't sell themselves.  People want to see glitz.

   Hmm,  I also see Zope as a tool, as well as a vehicle.  So you can say I 
see it now as a shovel, when it should be an earth mover.  They both move 
earth, but you can move mountains with the earth mover.

  Now the earth mover is no limo, or fancy sports car with all the bells and 
whistles. It has the functionality added to get the job done.
  I think one of the reasons we don't see eye to eye on this is because I 
don't have the luxury or burden of running a large company.  I don't have to 
provide paychecks to people, so I'm not looking for that quick glitzy fix to 
generate revenue.

>You could argue that Zope should be the project/brand with the glitz.  But 
>you're now limiting people's choices, because you're turning Zope into a 
>product rather than a tool.

   I understand the need to keep it simple, so that people can customize it 
without having to tear things out.  I think one can argue that a tool is a 
product, perhaps it's more of a framework, such as the CMF.

>Back to the X11/KDE argument.  Ever looked at an X11 server running w/out a 
>window manager?  That's Zope.  But it's wrong to "fix the problem" by 
>eliminating X11 and merging it with KDE, because then the Gnome (and 
>windowmaker, and sawfish, and...) people would be unhappy.

   When I use linux I go for the Gnome window manager.  I'm a windows guy at 
heart, and some could argue that linux has way too many choices.  I read 
somewhere that was one of it's downfalls to becoming a desktop standard.

>Layers provide choice.  Sure, they also provide a bit of confusion, but 
>this cost is far outweighed by the benefits.  Especially in open source, 
>where people participate because they want to participate, not because they 
>have no other choice.

   Layers can also provide problems that need to be addressed.  You made 
some excellent points in your other posting.  I'm attending a technical 
college where they have 100 or so computers with windows NT and 5 machines 
with Linux.  Nobody is using the Linux machines, so I'm hard-pressed to see 
the benefits.  Just like with my oracle training the default server is 
jserver which I believe is based off of tomcat.  They won't even let me 
install Zope, so again I'm hard-pressed to see the benefits you speak of.
  Constructive confict is good and it helps to flush out some hidden issues. 
  You see it as a X11/KDE thing and I see it as a shovel/earth mover thing.  
I don't mean to try and speak for anyone else.  I love what anybody does for 
Zope.  I just feel that as a shovel it will never be nothing more than 
someones backyard tool.  And I thought you wanted it to be able to hang with 
the big boys some day?
  At the very least thanks for hearing me out.

-- James
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