On Nov 15, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Tres Seaver wrote:
Chris is not advocating switching away from zc.buildout for the
*development* of the packages; he is arguing that we can't force people who *use* the packages to stop using the facilities supplied setuptools.


If we want people outside the rather small group of core Zope developers
to *use* our software, we are going to need to accomodate their
expectations about how Python pacakges work. At a miniumum, any package
which we release to the Cheeseshop should be testable and installable
using the "standard" tool used by nearly everyone:  setuptools.

That means we need to work harder at a coule of things:

 - Making sure the install-time dependencies in setup.py are accurate,
   minimal, and themselves installable.


 - Making sure that the tests can psss for somebody who is not a
   core Zope developer, (and therefore who doesn't know about
   zc.buildout, or want to).  E.g.:

    $ /path/to/python setup.py develop
    $ /path/to/python setup.py test

Grrrrr. I find "setup.py test" to be really annoying as it requires meta data that is available only to that command.

   If there are dependencies which are needed to run the tests but
   not merely to install the package, there should be a way to
   spell that.

Agreed. I'll note that there is a school of thought that I proposed but am somewhat ambivalent about that anything required by tests should also be required by install. This is in accordance with "fly what you test, test what you fly." To the degree that we do this, then there is no need for tests_require.

In setuptools, that is what 'tests_require' is
   for;  buildout doesn't (yet) have such a spelling (I think).

Ideally, buildout (really the testrunner recipe) should be able to honor tests_require, but setuptools doesn't make this information available to any other packages. :( (big frowny) Also, I believe that more is required to get "setup.py test" to work. I'm unsure what the details are.

When we do this, we tend to use a test extra. I suggest that when we use a test extra, we also put the value in tests_require. I will find this so distasteful that it will help me stick to the strategy of just putting these dependencies in install_requires. :)

In order to succeed here, we are going to have to quit releasing
packages without more careful thought, testing, etc.


This should not be interpreted as criticism of the heroic and well- meaning efforts to date. Despite that inevitable mistakes that were made, I'm very appreciative of the efforts a few individual people made to make the transition to eggs possible. I also apologize for not providing more oversight.


Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation

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