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Jim Fulton wrote:
> On Nov 15, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Tres Seaver wrote:
>> Chris is not advocating switching away from zc.buildout for the
>> *development* of the packages; he is arguing that we can't force
>> who *use* the packages to stop using the facilities supplied
>> If we want people outside the rather small group of core Zope
>> to *use* our software, we are going to need to accomodate their
>> expectations about how Python pacakges work. At a miniumum, any
>> which we release to the Cheeseshop should be testable and installable
>> using the "standard" tool used by nearly everyone: setuptools.
>> That means we need to work harder at a coule of things:
>> - Making sure the install-time dependencies in setup.py are accurate,
>> minimal, and themselves installable.
>> - Making sure that the tests can psss for somebody who is not a
>> core Zope developer, (and therefore who doesn't know about
>> zc.buildout, or want to). E.g.:
>> $ /path/to/python setup.py develop
>> $ /path/to/python setup.py test
> Grrrrr. I find "setup.py test" to be really annoying as it requires
> meta data that is available only to that command.
Not after running 'egg_info', or any other setuptools-aware command;
the tests_require dependencies then become introspectable. E.g.:
$ svn co $ZSVN/zope.tal/trunk zope.tal-trunk
$ cd zope.tal-trunk
$ /path/to/setuptools-aware/python setup.py egg_info
$ cat src/zope.tal-egg-info/requires.txt
>> If there are dependencies which are needed to run the tests but
>> not merely to install the package, there should be a way to
>> spell that.
> Agreed. I'll note that there is a school of thought that I proposed
> but am somewhat ambivalent about that anything required by tests
> should also be required by install. This is in accordance with "fly
> what you test, test what you fly." To the degree that we do this,
> then there is no need for tests_require.
There are a bunch of packages out there which contain ZCML, and try to
test the loadability of it. Those tests end up creating a huge furball
of dependencies which are artificial: the package itself doesn't need
to process ZCML, and any application which wants to conume the ZCML
provided by the package is going to have those dependencies satisfied
>> In setuptools, that is what 'tests_require' is
>> for; buildout doesn't (yet) have such a spelling (I think).
> Ideally, buildout (really the testrunner recipe) should be able to
> honor tests_require, but setuptools doesn't make this information
> available to any other packages. :( (big frowny) Also, I believe
> that more is required to get "setup.py test" to work. I'm unsure
> what the details are.
See above. If buildout can trigger creation of the egg-info directory,
all should be well. In fact, that directory will already be present in
any source distribution built with setuptools.
> When we do this, we tend to use a test extra. I suggest that when we
> use a test extra, we also put the value in tests_require. I will
> find this so distasteful that it will help me stick to the strategy
> of just putting these dependencies in install_requires. :)
>> In order to succeed here, we are going to have to quit releasing
>> packages without more careful thought, testing, etc.
> This should not be interpreted as criticism of the heroic and well-
> meaning efforts to date. Despite that inevitable mistakes that were
> made, I'm very appreciative of the efforts a few individual people
> made to make the transition to eggs possible. I also apologize for
> not providing more oversight.
Agreed completely (on the heroic part).
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com
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