On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Stephan Richter wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 March 2009, Gary Poster wrote:
>> My mild counter proposal was this.
>> - The ZF formally institutes an easy way for people to start "Zope"
>> - Hopefully, Martijn F. starts something like the project he
>> - Hopefully, people follow it.
>> In other words, I suppose, Just Do It.
> Actually Martijn tried to be better than that. :-) Instead of just
> forming a
> steering group (which I would interpret as a Zope project) and
> announcing it
> to the community, he asked for feedback first. :-)
:-) Yes, that is better.
> I probably agree he should have just done it by gathering the
> various release
> managers. BTW, in one of my original responses, I proposed to
> Martijn that
> the steering group should be mostly the release managers plus one or
> strong developers so that the group reaches an odd number.
Now that he's proposed it, hopefully he does it, without 100% buy-in,
as I just wrote to Martijn.
>> Beyond that, I didn't say my other smaller thought, which was that I
>> think the KGS should ideally be looser and more flexible than what
>> Martijn described. If you have a project that wants in on the KGS,
>> great, you can add it.
> That is the case right now and I think a steering group would be
> pretty open
> to additions.
> However, I think Martijn made a much more important point. What he
> wants, if I
> understood him correctly, is more of an organization around a
> hierarchy of
> The reason for this is that Zope/Plone, grok, and Zope 3 AS all
> share a
> common core and maybe a coreplus set. Then each sub-project
> maintains a KGS
> on top of that with their specific extensions.
> (1) This will make interoperability much easier, since I could
> potentially use
> grok X.Y in Zope 2.Z without worrying about version conflicts.
> (2) If the steering group contains all of the release managers, then
> can be synced effectively.
>> Institute a "nightly" KGS for an upcoming
>> release (and maybe the most recent release).
> We do have this system today.
Too bad about the failures. How are you announcing the failures ATM?
>> It stays around forever
>> at a specific URL. Include only the projects whose tests pass in the
>> nightly KGS. Have a list elsewhere of the ones for which the tests
>> fail. If the tests don't pass for some period of time, apparently
>> maintainers and users don't exist or don't care, and they get taken
>> off the list to be tested.
> That statement is a massive over-simplification of what's going
> on. ;-)
Heh, well, that's not exactly a surprise. :-)
> are several problems:
> (1) Tests that pass in isolation might not pass in a complete run.
> This might
> be due to this or another packages incomplete teardown. (Several
> people spent
> weeks getting this right for the 3.4 KGS.)
> (2) A new release of one package might break 5 others. Who is
> responsible for
> updating the 5 breaking packages. The author that just released the
> package or the ones from the 5 others? What if those other packages
> do not
> have clear, single maintainers (e.g. zope.*)?
> I am not making up these cases. They are real and they exist today.
I know you are correct. I've experienced very similar things myself.
> The idea
> that one package has 1 or more concrete and devoted authors is
> simply not
> real in the Zope world of 200+ packages.
There certainly are stakeholders who are willing to invest on this,
particularly on core packages (where "core" differs for the
>> The "Zope Framework" team leader then
>> decides some time to make a release, so people might shuffle around
>> versions more than usual, but it's just another KGS.
> Yep, this is basically what happens today. For example, at Keas we use
> different versions (even trunk) of at least 20 packages. The point
> is that
> people have a stable point to start with. I think that would not
Great. (And thank you, this is much farther along than the last time
FWIW, the only polish I'd love to see is static pages for past dev
releases (or did I miss them?)
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