Hi,

On 03/03/2010 04:56 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Christian Theune <c...@gocept.com> wrote:
>> Morning,
>>
>> On 03/02/2010 07:09 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>>  > Chris McDonough suggests to ponder further structuring of the ZTK into
>>>  > separate sub-sets which might allow us to get better mileage regarding
>>>  > maintenance and release management. He gave the example of the
>>>  > "Bicycle Toolkit" (zope.component, zope.configuration,
>>>  > zope.interface).
>>>
>>> -1
>>
>> Uhh. -1 for what? -1 for pondering *something*? The note I took was a
>> request for thinking about something. No *I'm* confused about stop energy.
> 
> Oh come on. No, it's not -1 to pondering something. It's -1 to the
> idea of "splitting the ZTK into separate sub-sets which might allow us
> to get better mileage regarding maintenance and release management."
> 
> I suppose Martijn should have said something like: "I'm thinking of
> disagreeing with that idea."

Here's what I saw this morning when writing that:

- Note from the meeting that we maybe ponder something without giving
  specific directives/actions.
- Direct "-1" with Martijn's opinion and his reasoning.
- A response from Chris which has more elaborate thoughts.
- Another response of Martijn refusing to argue about it.

I'm puzzled and that's what I tried to express.

> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Marius Gedminas <mar...@gedmin.as> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 10:06:18AM +0100, Hermann Himmelbauer wrote:
>>> Am Mittwoch 03 M�rz 2010 01:28:21 schrieb Chris McDonough:
>>>> On 3/2/10 2:50 PM, Jim Fulton wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Chris McDonough<chr...@plope.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/2/10 1:09 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >  Chris McDonough suggests to ponder further structuring of the ZTK
>>>>>>>   > into separate sub-sets which might allow us to get better mileage
>>>>>>>   > regarding maintenance and release management. He gave the example
>>>>>>>   > of the "Bicycle Toolkit" (zope.component, zope.configuration,
>>>>>>>   >  zope.interface).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know who "people" are, and I don't know who "they" are, and I
>>>>>> don't know who broke what.
>>>>>
>>>>> No one should have to extract anything from the ZTK, because, AFAIK,
>>>>> the ZTK isn't a distribution.
>>>>
>>>> You've both successfully beaten any initiative out of me again.  Well done.
>>>> Full speed ahead.
>>>
>>> Hmmm, interesting:
> 
> ...
> 
>>> As anyone can see, "worker_thread" is not started often, which is not 
>>> optimal.
>>> How could this be improved?
>>
>> More positive feedback, less negative feedback.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Does Martijn and me
> disagreeing with an idea constitute negative feedback?  Is
> disagreement not allowed? If so, that doesn't leave much room for
> discussion.  

Right. The whole "discussion culture" here on zope-dev needs some
polishing - I guess we still haven't cooled down yet and haven't found a
tone in which to talk to each other that doesn't result in somebody
being annoyed every five minutes.

An impression I also have is that we seem to default to negative
feedback when we don't directly understand someone else's motivation or
intention and would have to work hard in order to understand it better.
I think that also cuts us off from having new people express ideas that
might not be sketched out accurately.

The state of the current discussion already seems to involve three
people misunderstanding each other after three posts - at least that's
how it looks to me - and not having the intention of trying to
understand each others intentions.

I think there is some relevant and important desire that Chris has which
actually overlaps with some of thoughts I had lately: organizing the
currently 65 packages into categories where larger chunks of packages
make sense of being used together to socially encourage re-use doesn't
seem bad to me.

> Or is Chris' characterization of my disagreement with him
> as "beating" negative feedback. This seems more appropriate to me, but
> I'm not sure what you mean.

Hmm. I do understand why Chris responded that way, I'm not sure it had
to be in response to your post, but I guess that was because your post
came in second, otherwise it may have hit Martijn (yet again). But also
I'm not going to analyze Chris' feelings sitting over here in my room ... ;)

Christian

-- 
Christian Theune · c...@gocept.com
gocept gmbh & co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 0 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development

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