Hi there,

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Hanno Schlichting <ha...@hannosch.eu> wrote:
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Martijn Faassen <faas...@startifact.com> 
> wrote:
>> Last december Hanno made progress on the ZTK's dependency structure,
>> removing a lot of dependencies on packages. In his enthusiasm, he
>> unilaterally just removed all those suddenly-unneeded (by him!) packages
>> from the ZTK, without discussion.
>
> My actions last December had an unfortunate effect. I assumed a common
> understanding of what the ZTK should be and tried to work towards
> that, but it turned out that understanding wasn't shared after all. I
> should have known better and discussed things before taking any
> actions. For not discussing things properly I apologize.

Okay, apology accepted, but we already discussed this anyway privately
back in december. I apologized for the revert instead of working out
the better
plan that I came up with a few hours later. In my defense, I was
thinking on my feet and we were still touching zope app packages
that needed to be testable, so I didn't want the situation where
testing this was not possible with the ZTK to linger. I also thought
that I was supposed to maintain the process we had in place for
removing packages and this was a bold violation of it, compounded by
people arguing *I* had the burden of proof after this fait accomplit.
I wish there were more steering group members involved at the time,
but I couldn't really help that.

> In didn't see
> any chance of making any progress during the heated debate following
> those events, so I decided to let things cool off and let everyone
> work on their own for a while.

We were making progress in that debate, and actually pretty rapidly,
though it was hard to do amongst all the heat. To me, your walking out
raised
the immediate heat level (though I tried to ignore it), and made it
completely impossible for me to cool off, as this signaled an end to
collaboration and a lack of trust in me.
I tried to cool off for 4 months, but today I still found myself upset
about it, so that obviously wasn't working very well.

>> No, I cannot present it less acrimoniously. The lack of commitment and
>> trust displayed back then still hurts me too much for that.
>
> Martijn and me tried to discuss this off-list. I think at this stage
> there's no way to solve our disagreement. I'd rather not continue any
> of this in public, as I don't see how this would have any constructive
> effect.

I don't know, perhaps you'll get me more engaged again. I'm in the situation
that I have to work with people here, I want to work with people here,
but my trust in my
ability to work with people here was seriously damaged. Maybe that
gets me out of my dilemma.

> The Zope community asked Christophe, Jan-Wijbrand and me to act as a
> release team for the ZTK and we started working on this task.
> I intend to continue to work in this group. If the Zope community feels I'm 
> not
> qualified for the job or the other two team members don't want to work
> with me, I'll happily step down.

I think you're qualified for the job and I trust you'll do a good one.

I just hope you'll get more trust and credit than I got in december.

Regards,

Martijn
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